[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals

Ben,

Thanks for your reply and additional information.

In 2018, the budget was 26.6~ million with 151 Full time employees 
serving 20624 LIRS

The most recent budget is 38.2 Million with a proposed 41~ Million and 
almost 200 Full time employees.

If we did it in 2018 with 150~ employees, why can't we do it in 2024 
with 150 Employees. Would that not offer a significant reduction in 
operating expenses.

I understand inflation has happened and money doesn't stretch as far, 
but we also have 50~ more employees than then, for now the same amount 
of LIRS.

Daniel~

On 4/10/24 8:26 AM, Ben Cartwright-Cox wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> I try and not get involved on these mailing lists since they end up
> being a bit of a "Player vs Player zone", but as far as I can tell
> uk.privatesystems ( [your/your employer's] RIPE tag ) , was created in
> 2016, meaning it was at the start from when the fees started at 1400.
> This was in a "boom" time for RIPE NCC.
>
> A couple of years before that the RIPE LIR fee was 1800, however then
> the number of LIRs exploded (likely) because of a upcoming IP
> shortage, so people started opening more than one LIR/membership to
> get more IPs
>
> However now that the RIPE waiting list is the way it is, these new
> LIRs are not only seemingly dropping off, but the "shortage boomer"
> LIRs (a term I just made up) are now merging back into larger LIRs,
> meaning that the (LIR-Fee * LIR-Count = cash) nunber is now a lot
> less, in a way that is not catching up with the years of inflation
> that was not applied to the fee.
>
> In the open house a table was presented that shows the numbers, plus
> euro inflation over time and how it would have compounded to the price
> today, funnily enough, the price is now basically 1800!
>
> | Year | LIRs  | Fee  | Inflati | Adjust | Redis. |     |
> |------|-------|------|---------|--------|--------|-----|
> | 2016 | 15008 | 1.4  | 0.98%   | 1.4    | 400    | 400 |
> | 2017 | 17601 | 1.4  | 1.25%   | 1.414  | 279    | 279 |
> | 2018 | 20624 | 1.4  | 1.96%   | 1.431  | 359    | 359 |
> | 2019 | 25125 | 1.4  | 2.72%   | 1.459  | 568    | 568 |
> | 2020 | 23569 | 1.4  | 0.98%   | 1.499  | 354    | 354 |
> | 2021 | 23209 | 1.4  | 5.71%   | 1.514  | 461    | 461 |
> | 2022 | 23383 | 1.4  | 9.59%   | 1.6    | 614    | 614 |
> | 2023 | 21570 | 1.55 | 1.21%   | 1.754  | 8      | 8   |
> | 2024 | 20500 | 1.55 | 2%*     | 1.775  | 54     | 54  |
> | 2025 | 20000 | ???  | 2%*     | 1.81   | ???    | ??? |
>
> ( taken from https://www.ripe.net/documents/3744/Charging_Scheme_2025_-_Open_House.pdf
> , something I highly encourage everyone to flick through, if you have
> not already )
>
> Now there is a "hindsight" argument on if RIPE should have just been
> tracking the inflation increases regardless if it would have just
> resulted in a bigger redistribution at the end of the year, just so
> that when the party stops we would not be having as much of a fight
> about it, but oh well, that's in the past.
>
> I understand the argument on people's desire to pay less for things,
> but remember that there are nice people sitting behind RIPE, who I
> would not always describe as being paid the "Inspire the best talent"
> market salary rate. If you want nice things sometimes you have to pay
> for stuff, and starving RIPE of money results in worse service for
> people, making you think that RIPE are even worse, etc etc, death
> spiral. RIPE also provides data sets and research that helps all RIRs
> and network operators.
>
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 13:57, Daniel Pearson <daniel at privatesystems.net> wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> A modest increase is not going to kill us, but why are fee's going up when RIPE is shrinking?
>>
>> Should RIPE have the same budget and staff, when it is serving fewer members?
>>
>> Fewer LIR members should inturn mean a smaller , more efficient RIPE.
>>
>>
>> Daniel~
>>
>>
>> On 4/10/24 7:48 AM, Leopoldo Maestro - Soltia Consulting SL wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I think it is a very reasonable increase, the budget is maintained for a while and the changes are not so dramatic that they could impact many people.
>>
>> Let's be honest, an increase of 400€ (33-34€/month) a year is not going to kill us.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Why do we not have an option that refuses any rate increases, and forces RIPE to reduce it's budget?
>>
>> Option D - No change to rates, RIPE reduces budget according to fewer number of LIR!
>>
>> The Board MUST make tough decisions. If RIPE is serving fewer LIR then the board must adjust RIPE to be a proper size.
>>
>> Daniel~
>>
>> On 4/10/24 4:18 AM, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote:
>>
>> Dear RIPE NCC members,
>>
>>
>> We can now share three draft charging scheme models for 2025 that the Executive Board approved with the following resolution at its meeting on 25 March 2024:
>>
>>
>> The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the submission of the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 options to the upcoming RIPE NCC General Meeting for members to vote on.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Option A  -  Charging Scheme as is with 22.58% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,900) and a 0% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 50)
>>
>> - Option B  -  Charging Scheme as is with 20.97% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,875) and a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75)
>>
>> - Option C  -  Charging Scheme as is with 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75) and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment
>>
>>
>> *Resources falling under this charge are IPv4 and IPv6 PI assignments; Anycast assignments; IPv4 and IPv6 IXP assignments; and Legacy IPv4 resource registrations through a sponsoring LIR.
>>
>>
>> The full draft charging scheme models are available from the GM Documentation page: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation-and-archives/supporting-documents/
>>
>>
>> Although the proposed models are relatively simple, we provide a calculator where you can see exactly what you would pay under each of the proposed models:
>>
>> https://www.ripe.net/documents/3757/CS2025_Member_Calculator.xlsx
>>
>>
>> The main considerations for the Executive Board in proposing these three models are:
>>
>> 1. The consolidation of LIR accounts, which means the burden to generate sufficient income must be met by fewer accounts
>>
>> 2. Increased costs due to inflation that were previously catered for by the large number of LIR accounts
>>
>> 3. Following the discussions last year and again this year, there appears to be no clear consensus among members on how a category-based model would work and the Board does not wish to put another category model forward at the upcoming GM that will be rejected by the members. Rather, the Board will propose a simple model that guarantees adequate funding for 2025 and 2026 - under this proposal, we expect there would be no need for a fee increase for 2026. The Board will work with the RIPE NCC on a more in-depth consultation with the members aimed at arriving at a sustainable solution for 2027 and beyond, possibly involving a new charging scheme task force.
>>
>>
>> All three proposed models are designed to arrive at the same income of EUR 41.1 million for the RIPE NCC in 2025. This will cover all current services and activities, a 5% staff cost increase, a 2% inflation increase on all non-staff costs, and EUR 1 million for additional work relating to registry complexity and security projects aimed at ensuring the resilience of the Registry and the RIPE NCC more broadly. Any such additional work would be discussed with the membership during Activity Plan and Budget consultations and then need to be approved by the Board. This will also allow some leeway should more LIR accounts close than we expect.
>>
>>
>> It’s important to note that the RIPE NCC aims for an income budget that will provide a surplus, and this means that should we meet our budgetary targets, a surplus can be returned to members in 2026 should they so wish.
>>
>>
>> While the RIPE NCC continues to carry out cost-cutting efforts across the organisation, drastically reducing the budget at this time is not advisable due to the work that needs to be carried out, especially in relation to maintaining high-quality registry services and securing the registry and RIPE NCC systems. Cutting services or activities is not something the Board is planning to do, and such actions would take time and need full consultation with the membership. An overview of the activities and services that the membership fee covers is provided below this email.
>>
>>
>> I also urge you to see the presentation we delivered at the charging scheme open house in March so that the full context of the situation and the financial landscape we face is clear to you. The slides are available at:
>>
>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2025/
>>
>>
>> Finally, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the consultation so far on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. The models we present here are draft and in two weeks we will announce the final proposal that members will vote on at the GM on 22-24 May. Please discuss the draft proposal on the members-discuss at ripe.net list - any input received by 19 April can be incorporated if possible into the final models we propose. And make sure to register for the GM so that you can vote on the charging scheme that will apply for you and all members next year:
>>
>> https://my.ripe.net/#/meetings/active
>>
>>
>> Simon-Jan Haytink
>>
>> Chief Financial Officer
>>
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>>
>> Services and Activities Covered by the Member Fee
>>
>>
>> - A trusted, efficient, accurate and resilient registry that guarantees uniqueness of resources held by members
>>
>> - Neutral information services uninfluenced by commercial or government interests that allow both the RIPE NCC and the community to carry out useful research into the Internet
>>
>> - Engagement activities, including RIPE and regional meetings, that build an active membership and community and that contribute to the overall good of the Internet
>>
>> - A voice and influence for the membership in key decision-making fora, including with governments and regulators
>>
>> - Protection of the Joint Internet Number Registry as developed by the Internet community
>>
>> - Learning and development activities that help to address skills shortages and contribute to an educated membership
>>
>> - Support for the Policy Development Process (PDP)
>>
>> - An authoritative registry of routing information provided by RPKI and the RIPE Database
>>
>> - K-root and DNS services
>>
>> - A dedicated staff with considerable expertise contributing to all of the above
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Leopoldo Maestro
>> Soltia Consulting S.L
>>
>> Email: info at soltia.es | Tel: (+34) 910052420
>>
>> Movil: (+34) 661004140
>>
>> En virtud de lo establecido en la Ley 15/1999, y la LSSICE 34/2002, le informamos que sus datos forman parte de un fichero automatizado titularidad de Soltia Consulting, S.L. La información registrada se utilizará para informarle por cualquier medio electrónico de nuestras novedades comerciales. Puede ejercer los derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición en: C\Zurbano 45 1ª Planta, 28010 Madrid, España.
>>
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