[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

Hi Josh,

Thanks for your reply, I agree it is very concerning with the budget 
increases that RIPE continues to give its self.

So my only counter point to your assertion regarding Category 5 members 
would be that IP addresses themselves are not supposed to be viewed as 
tangible owned objects. While I am summarizing things and may not be 
entirely accurate, I'll give my thoughts. RIR's walk a tight rope on how 
IP addresses are classified. In the days of old, legacy blocks, which 
many of the large IPv4 holders still have, are contractually and legally 
theirs just like any other real property, they own them. Those 
individuals are becoming a member of a registry to have a place to 
record their usage so that the rest of the world continues to 
acknowledge those blocks and route that traffic.

When things changed, legacy blocks went away and we began to shift 
towards the newer structure we have today, which is a very careful 
balance on how to categorize IPv4 assets. I would be concerned that if 
RIPE began to specifically charge per block assigned, that they may 
inadvertently imply or grant more or less ownership rights over those 
blocks by doing so and could have quite a few unintended consequences.

With that said, if RIPE would right size their budget, and stop wasting 
millions of dollars, I don't see any reason why we could not return to 
2019 levels for all members involved.

Daniel~

On 3/9/23 09:16, Josh Jameson wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> I agree with all your points and it does concern me. We have more LIRs 
> than ever and no new IPv4 to hand out, so why are RIPE NCC's expenses 
> getting out of control?
>
> Perhaps it would be in the best interest of RIPE to not hand out 
> millions to other ventures if you can't even meet your own budget.
>
> Membership for us for the past few years cost;
> 2016: 2,100
> 2017: 1,575
> 2018: 1,040
> 2019: 832
> 2020: 1,046
> 2021: 939
> 2022: 786
> 2023: 1,541
> 2024: 2,100 (Model 1)
>
> What the hell happened for us to get back to 2016 pricing!? It seems 
> RIPE is completely mismanaged.
>
> In 2016 there were ~13,000 LIRs.
> In 2023 there are ~23,000 LIRs.
>
> The only thing that has changed is their growth has HALTED because we 
> ran out of IPv4. Why the hell is RIPE being run like a for-profit and 
> why do they need "investments"?
>
> However, it doesn't excuse large members who will be paying a capped 
> 8,000/yr for literally millions of IPv4. It's still completely unfair 
> IMHO. I believe in equal opportunity and it's impossible for new LIRs 
> to get IPv4 unless you pay stupid amounts leasing the addresses or 
> buying them outright as a transfer.
>
> How many of you Category 5 members can honestly hold your hand up and 
> say you're*low on IPv4 space, AND can't afford to contribute 8,000 per 
> year? _That's complete nonsense._*
>
> Regards,
> Josh Jameson
> Technical Director
> ServeByte Ltd
>
> On 09/03/2023 12:13, Daniel Pearson wrote:
>> Hi Josh,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply. It's not about being able to afford or not 
>> afford this for us, it's the simple fact that I do not believe RIPE 
>> has its members best interest at heart with this change.
>>
>>   * RIPE does not need 190 employees.
>>   * RIPE does not need to 'contribute' millions to other ventures
>>   * RIPE does not need to budget 579 'trips' in a single year.
>>   * RIPE does not need to budget almost 3 million for "PR". RIPE is a
>>     monopoly, it has NO competition in the regions it operates, why
>>     does it need PR?
>>
>> The fact remains that RIPE is a member governed non profit which we 
>> all have a say in how it operates. I fully disagree that RIPE needs 
>> to raise their fee's like this to continue operating properly.
>>
>> You are correct, this is a very important VOTE and membership should 
>> do just that, and send a clear message to the board that we will not 
>> tolerate irrelevant waste of our money.
>>
>> Daniel~
>>
>> On 3/8/23 11:41, Josh Jameson wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel,
>>>
>>> The new proposed pricing model 2 is fair. Hoarders of IPv4 aren't 
>>> going to like the new model. I encourage every LIR to vote on the 
>>> upcoming change when requested! This is *THE MOST IMPORTANT VOTE* in 
>>> recent times and may actually solve the IPv4 shortage in the EU.
>>>
>>> Your AS63410 currently announce 67,072 IPv4 addresses registered to 
>>> your entity PrivateSystems Networks. If you can't afford 4,050 euros 
>>> per year, it's time to recycle some IP addresses back to RIPE.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Josh Jameson
>>> Technical Director
>>> ServeByte Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/03/2023 13:14, Daniel Pearson wrote:
>>>> We have a relatively small deployment with a single LIR, single ASN 
>>>> , two IPv4 allocations and one IPv6 allocation.
>>>>
>>>> Model 1 has me paying 28.2% more , €2,050
>>>> Model 2 has me paying 89.7% more.... €4,050
>>>>
>>>> For a small provider.. that is a SIGNIFICANT price increase and 
>>>> burden for what is effectively a centralized database and 
>>>> verification service.
>>>>
>>>> For what exactly are you telling me I am paying for with those 
>>>> increases?
>>>>
>>>> Why has your budget grown to the point that you are worried about 
>>>> LIR accounts merging? Why are you not exploring other options by 
>>>> reducing your budget and being proper stewards of our money. Please 
>>>> do not forget that RIPE, as your own definition is a "We're a 
>>>> not-for-profit membership association, a Regional Internet Registry 
>>>> and the secretariat for the RIPE community supporting the Internet 
>>>> through technical coordination."
>>>>
>>>> You are not for profit, and as such I would recommend instead of 
>>>> increasing the LIR pricing, we acknowledge that the world is a much 
>>>> tougher place and review not only the budget expenses of the 
>>>> organization but additional expenses that are not necessary. You're 
>>>> offering up to €250,000 per year funding projects with presumably 
>>>> our registration fee's and funds of which you selected 8 
>>>> recipients, for a presumed funding of €2,000,000 of our funds..... 
>>>> If that program was cut or reduced, how much would that make up for 
>>>> your budget short fall?
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise how about we also investigate other avenues of budget 
>>>> expenditure from RIPE and determine your total projected short fall.
>>>>
>>>> Ripe appears to have Approx 190 Employees on payroll as well, but 
>>>> yet RIPE only has 23,397 LIR's and 20,244 members. That is a 
>>>> significantly high ratio of employee to members, - 106 Members per 
>>>> 1 employee - why is this so high, what audits have been conducted 
>>>> recently to ensure RIPE is not suffering from technical creep and 
>>>> employee bloat?
>>>>
>>>> Your own budget for 2023 shows you've assigned less IPv4 resources 
>>>> in 2021 and 2022 than in prior years and have completed 
>>>> significantly fewer registry checks. The only real increase seen 
>>>> has been in RPKI's created.
>>>>
>>>> You're also projecting more trips this year than previous as well, 
>>>> a 10% increase. I'm sorry but this feels like a huge cash grab to 
>>>> maintain your current life style and I fully reject both Models. If 
>>>> I have more time I'll continue to dig into your financials and we 
>>>> can all have discussions on how as an organization you can be 
>>>> better stewards of our Money. You have to remember, at the end of 
>>>> the day your job is to manage a registry of finite resources. 
>>>> Spending money on events, trade shows, travel and excess employees 
>>>> is not a necessity to conduct your original goals and objectives.
>>>>
>>>> The rest of the world, and all of the small companies who utilize 
>>>> your services often times do not have the liberty to simply talk 
>>>> about raising prices, especially in many of the economically 
>>>> impacted areas that RIPE services. RIPE should follow the same 
>>>> course of action as many of their customers do, evaluate internal 
>>>> expenditures and operate within the budget provided by your 
>>>> members, not come to the membership and request we continue to pay 
>>>> for donations to random projects, or a 10% increase in employee travel.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely
>>>> Daniel C Pearson
>>>> Private Systems Networks~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/7/23 03:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
>>>>> Dear RIPE NCC members,
>>>>>
>>>>> We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
>>>>>
>>>>> To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
>>>>>
>>>>> Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023  that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can download the Excel sheet from:
>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx
>>>>>
>>>>> We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss at ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
>>>>>
>>>>> The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
>>>>>
>>>>> I look forward to your input.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon Jan Haytink
>>>>> Finance Director
>>>>> RIPE NCC
>>>>>
>>>>> Summary
>>>>>
>>>>> 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model
>>>>> 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership
>>>>> 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far
>>>>> 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024
>>>>> 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members
>>>>> 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
>>>>>
>>>>> References
>>>>>
>>>>> Open House and Survey Results
>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles
>>>>>
>>>>> Presentation at General Meeting
>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
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>>
>>
>
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