[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

The direct costs for allocated/assigned resources, even when allowing for significant overhead (indirect costs) in corp it, admin, etc., would be significantly lower than what RIPE NCC would want its budget to be.



Kaj

From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> On Behalf Of ripe-ncc-members-discuss at itns.md
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:26
To: Will van Gulik <will at nimag.net>; members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

hi there,

Дet's not reinvent the wheel.

The only fair method of calculating membership dues is to determine the annual cost of the allocated/assigned resources.
For now, the charge should be only for ipv4 and calculated per /24.

best,
Sergiu


08.03.2023, 19:42, "Will van Gulik" <will at nimag.net<mailto:will at nimag.net>>:

Hi Everyone,

I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough
on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs
received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact
their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if
you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're
already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally
with Martin on that one.

Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I
think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance),
dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would
have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we
would loose the diversity of votes for small entities.

In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep
their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would
cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees.
I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative
troubles and load on the NCC.

Kind regards,

Will van Gulik
Nimag Networks

On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote:
Hello,

in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file
is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more
appropriate, i.e.:

 Extra Small 1024
 Small 4096
 Medium 16384
 Large 65536
 Extra Large >

instead of:

 Extra Small 512
 Small 2048
 Medium 8192
 Large 32768
 Extra Large >

Best regards,

Martin Volf
Dragon Internet a.s.
AS15614

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:

 Dear RIPE NCC members,

 We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in
 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out
 that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May
 2023.

 In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our
 members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme
 model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The
 outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases
 made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based
 model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A
 strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned
 by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.

 The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war
 in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter
 together with the membership.

 One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the
 charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who
 received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This
 means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant
 amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to
 collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a
 category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk.
 Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for
 all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging
 scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the
 needs of the RIPE NCC's members.

 To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to
 assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These
 models can be summarised as:

 Model 1: A "one-LIR, one-fee" model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging
 Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and
 changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.

 Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR
 account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for
 independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure
 such as Mergers & Acquisitions.

 In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation,
 we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees
 you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware
 that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and
 would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review
 these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on
 those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.

 You can download the Excel sheet from:
 https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fmember-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yJ8wiUboGncjV2fba2ChBOXM2xj%2BVZKytrsVplCu2JA%3D&reserved=0>

 We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in
 March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board
 will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the
 membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of
 that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming
 years.

 I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the
 Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>) by 26 April.
 Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when
 formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this
 date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the
 schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.

 The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
 https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hgVtmeWpQRVeo37X%2Fr8y6eKJu%2B6YM%2FSbjZfjmrp%2Fj3E%3D&reserved=0>

 I look forward to your input.

 Kind regards,

 Simon Jan Haytink
 Finance Director
 RIPE NCC

 Summary

 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme
 model
 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership
 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far
 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024
 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by
 members
 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023

 References

 Open House and Survey Results
 https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fopen-house%2Fripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q%2FJ6Ktf%2Bfuj5nMnIKyd6OgonONLCK%2FvaL5wm3a1JeWg%3D&reserved=0>

 Presentation at General Meeting
 https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fgm%2Fmeetings%2Fmay-2021%2Fdocumentation-and-archive%2Fripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4kZ%2BTs0RC9HwGPcCZtH2GcMQehC6gNeUXZ4u%2BeylxF8%3D&reserved=0>


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