[members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating?

Hello Serg,

That's do not change anything for us, only internet in Russian Federation 
will be affected.

All internet routing in the rest of the world is based on the trust of 
five RIRs DBs. We trust RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC data bases, 
and we do not care in what will trust Russians ISP's routers.

If somebody or some company, no matter what nationality it is, do not 
maintain and update properly their records (for example roa) in the 
RIRs DBs the internet routers will automaticly drop the connectivity to 
them. In the end that person or company that do not trust to authority 
DBs will not be connected to the global Internet, but in some kind of 
local Intranet, thats all.

I guess they do that because will be much easier for russians ISPs to 
apply their government regulations and filter/block part of the internet 
(for example the connection - russian users -> facebook). Even in some 
cases where security is priority, invalid data is intentionally created 
in RIR databases.

If you are concerned about the IRR, and now there are tons of invalid 
ones, especially in the ARIN database. From my almost 35 years of 
technical experience in the IT sector, I can assure you that the global 
Internet will not be affected by the decision that Russia will use its own 
"caching" registry. It could only affect Internet services and users 
inside the Russian Federation.

I am not a lawyer, and from a legal point of view I could not say whether 
the use of such a "caching" register by any country/company/person is in 
breach of any of the clauses of the contracts between RIPE and LIRs, but 
I think it is unlikely.

> Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry?
> So, what is next?

Nothing for us, they will lost connectivity to the global network 
(transiting carriers + IXPs will filter their BGP announces).

> And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national
> registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about
> the validity of the data in RIPEdb.

And you think all information in all five RIRs DBs are (or at least was 
sometime) 100% valid ? Right now more than 1/4 from the global routing 
information in RIRs DBs is invalid. Imagine what is the state of the other 
much less important information in these databases.


If your worries are due to some technical aspect of the operation of the 
global network in RIPE region, please be more specific and share exactly 
what your concerns are.


Ivaylo Josifov
VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
Varna, Bulgaria


On Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:

> Dear colleague,
> Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything
> working right until everyone is do everything right.
> What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before
>
> "Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme?
> I let myself to translate records on bottom - "?????????? ?????????
> ???????????? ?????? ????? ??????????? ?? ?????????????? ??????? ?
> ????????????? ?? ??????????"
> Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the
> international registry and switch to the Russian.
> Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?"
>
> Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry?
> So, what is next?
> And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national
> registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about
> the validity of the data in RIPEdb.
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo at bglans.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
>>
>> I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears,
>> but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet
>> in the region) they are unfounded.
>>
>> The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function
>> this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear
>> and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by
>> the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the
>> requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries -
>> RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local
>> Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end
>> users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for
>> the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in
>> the database of the respective RIR.
>>
>> RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate
>> information on all records in their database so that all Internet
>> participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by
>> the entity to which they are delegated.
>>
>> Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for
>> Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the
>> Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world
>> (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the
>> Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators
>> operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet
>> connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is
>> out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will
>> continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
>>
>> Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
>>
>>
>> Ivaylo Josifov
>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
>> Varna, Bulgaria
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Athina,
>>>
>>> I have read your reply with great interest.
>>> You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will
>>> allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire
>>> community is interested in, and which have not been answered.
>>> And so:
>>> a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of
>>> the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine
>>> uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register
>>> with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
>>
>> Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative
>> sources.
>>
>>> b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will
>>> part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire
>>> registry?
>>
>> RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical
>> problems.
>>
>>> c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national
>>> register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of
>>> their sovereign  bills, of course?
>>
>> Nothing.
>>
>>>
>>> And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They
>>> told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE
>>> database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe
>>> them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack
>>> anyone," can they still be trusted now?
>>>
>>
>> As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of
>> the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not
>> understand your fear here.
>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou at ripe.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Serg, all,
>>>>
>>>> I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
>>>>
>>>> We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
>>>>
>>>> The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
>>>>
>>>> In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
>>>>
>>>> It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories.  We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
>>>>
>>>> Our position on this matter has been firm:
>>>>
>>>> The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
>>>>
>>>> This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-and-our-mission-as-the-ripe-ncc/
>>>> In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
>>>>
>>>> ? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined
>>>> ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources
>>>> ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
>>>>
>>>> We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Athina Fragkouli
>>>> Chief Legal Officer
>>>> RIPE NCC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Athina,
>>>>
>>>> Please take a look here.
>>>> In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire
>>>> community by implementing such a project.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Andrzej,
>>>>
>>>> Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global.
>>>> It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR.
>>>> On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be
>>>> for all other members of all other RIR?
>>>> Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part
>>>> of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
>>>>
>>>> DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not
>>>> so critically important, to my mind.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa at dawis-it.pl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Andrzej,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they
>>>> will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within
>>>> Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know
>>>> about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to
>>>> create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
>>>>
>>>> And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their
>>>> infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>> Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
>>>>
>>>> Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it
>>>> originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying:
>>>> "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say
>>>> anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even
>>>> admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> tel. 500 206 0268
>>>> DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie
>>>> Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w
>>>> KRS 0000319237 I  NIP 5342409456 I  REGON 141663620
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sergey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sergey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sergey
>>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Sergey
>