[members-discuss] Feedback Requested: RIPE NCC Broker List

This discussion originated as a result of members receiving spam from brokers on the list.
I have pointed out that eliminating the list will have no effect on this activity.
Shutting down the list is punishing those who did not engage in this behavior.

I don't get the argument that because some people might infer something that isn't there (RIPE's support for listed brokers), the answer is to shut down all the information presented on the list. In particular the length of time on the list is a valuable data point to our clients.

We get business leads from our presence on the list, it has a benefit for us.
Our clients who have found us via the list have benefitted from the list.
At least from my perspective, these are real benefits, but where is the evidence that people are actually interpreting the list as RIPE's researched, vetted, and sanctioned brokers and having that lead to a problem? Has anybody actually experienced this?

We got here as a result of spam from brokers. With the list in place we can remove the spammers and cause them at least a little grief. If we remove the list, the spammers are completely unaffected. The Cogent announcement is an example of an RIR punishing an entity for ignoring agreements. In the same manner RIPE can punish brokers who ignore their agreement with RIPE. 

The RIPE broker agreement requires brokers to do certain things, like adhere to policy, refrain from representing themselves as RIPE, not go bankrupt, not to engage in un-booked transfers, to indemnify RIPE for certain claims related to transfers, and to provide correct information. I would add a section that prohibits unsolicited commercial emailing from listed brokers. That is the only action required to address this particular problem, no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 



-----Original Message-----
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> On Behalf Of Erik Bais
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:37 AM
To: Morris, Tina <tinam at amazon.com>; Carlos Friaças <cfriacas at fccn.pt>; Hank Nussbacher <hank at efes.iucc.ac.il>
Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Feedback Requested: RIPE NCC Broker List

I have to agree with Tina on this. 

There are already T&C where the facilitators need to adhere to and some are already violating them and the NCC isn't able (because not all violations are reported..) to curb those. And that won't change .. 

The perception of companies that this list is a managed / trustworthy source of facilitators with a great reputation and that having a bad reflection to the NCC if it isn't, is in my point a bigger issue. 

I would say to remove the list. There are enough resources on the internet to find a IP resource facilitator / broker. There is little to no additional value to gain here by maintaining it and try to enforce upon it. 
Once the list is gone, I would argue that there are still enough options for the NCC to act on T&C violations.. See what ARIN did with Cogent recently .. block their access to the Whois ... 

Erik Bais 

On 07/01/2020, 20:34, "members-discuss on behalf of Morris, Tina via members-discuss" <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net on behalf of members-discuss at ripe.net> wrote:

    The problem I see most frequently with the list of brokers is that people unfamiliar with the community and transfer process take this as a list of approved, trustworthy IPv4 facilitators.  This is not always the case, nor is it possible for RIPE to endorse and rate each broker. I know there is a disclaimer on the list  but people don't read these warnings, the mere existence on the website acts as an endorsement.  Therefore, I would like to see either the list removed or add a way for people to leave reviews.
    
    On 12/20/19, 11:10 AM, "members-discuss on behalf of Carlos Friaças via members-discuss" <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net on behalf of members-discuss at ripe.net> wrote:
    
        
        On Thu, 19 Dec 2019, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
        
        > On 19/12/2019 11:17, Christian Kaufmann wrote:
        >
        > I vote to keep the list since it is needed and does provide incentive to 
        > brokers to play by the rules.  In addition to keeping the list, RIPE NCC 
        > should auto-send a CoC to brokers on an automatic basis once a quarter.  Any 
        > broker that the email bounces should be removed from the list.  Any broker 
        > that doesn't ACK the auto-email within 5 business days should be removed from 
        > the list.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Hank
        
        Hi,
        
        I would be flexible about the 5 business days deadline, but what Hank 
        described seems a good approach to me.
        
        Regards,
        Carlos
        
    
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