[members-discuss] LIR???s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support

Hello, everybody

The problems with overing IPV4 space will become more and more actual with 
time, and I think this come from unfair RIPE charging scheme. As far as I'am 
familiar Current charging allows some lirs to have huge number of unused 
resources and others to think how to get needed resources, and everybody pay 
same amount of money. Also this scheme create space for speculators to get easy 
money from internet companies.

By me fair will be this scheme:

Registration fee:  no matter as RIPE decide 2k euro seems not little, but it is 
acceptable.

Annual fee: 350 euro (or second variant 1400 euro as it is now)
Every LIR (old and new) get one /24 IPV4 and one ASN for these 350 EURO (or one 
/22 IPV4 and 1 ASN) same as it is now, just for smaller organizations/companies 
which want to become LIR small fees and less resources will be provided.

If a company or organization needs more IPV4 space the annual fee to be bigger, 
for every /24 +350 euro. If a company have more than one /19 fee to be +400 
euro for every /24 after first /19

All LIR to LIR permanent resource transfer to be disabled. So if you need 
resources only ripe can provide them to you.

I beliave this way LIRs who have a lot of blocked unused IPV4 resources will 
return them to RIPE and they will be available for those who need them. Also 
speculators will be eliminated. And not last, RIPE will collect more moneys and 
will do what it have to do - to control the resources.


Maybe somewhere back in time something similar was discussed but can somebody 
explain me why it is not accepted or rejected or not liked ?


Ivaylo Josifov
Varteh LTD
Varna, Bulgaria


On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, ripe-member-discuss+lr at c2play.de wrote:

> @Dmitry:
> RIPE NCC does not earn quick money, it is a non-profit organisation and not
> a self-service shop.
> 
> @Lutz Donnerhacke:
> I'm not sure what you mean, but it is allowed for a single company to create
> multiple LIR accounts and so get multiple IPv4 /22 at the end of the day.
> That is absolutely conform to RIPE policy.
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> From: Dmitry Vorozhtsov <dvorozhtsov at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 4. Dec 2018 ? 12:09 CET +0100
> To: members-discuss at ripe.net
> 
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] LIR???s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need
> support
> 
> You are wrong. All my addresses are assigned and working. You may ask - why 
> do I open LIRs again and again?
> 
> Because I need more addresses to offer to my customers. Purchasing addresses 
> from open market is risky. Thats why I open new LIRs.
> 
> RIPE earns quick money in this case, not me.
> 
> 
> Regards, Dmitry.
> 
> 04.12.2018 19:41, Paolo Prandini ?????:
> > I was worried so much about this discussion starting again!
> > I suppose a lot of people is interested in it, as far as I can > understand 
> is a
> > matter of quick money by buying and reselling the last IPv4 blocks, > and 
> RIPE is
> > NOT making this easy enough for some people. Then there are legitimate
> > claims, but the rules were so easy to understand, 1k IPs for new LIRs,
> > that there is always someone trying to bend them to make some more money.
> > Anyway it is the way it goes, the world moves where it finds the money,
> > I suppose it is a corollary of finding the minimum of potential energy.
> > But I am not interested in this discussion, it goes on and on and on
> > since more than a year, I am unsubscribing to the list. Thanks anybody
> > who contributed.
> > Paolo
> >
> > Il 04/12/2018 11:25, ripe-member-discuss+lr at c2play.de ha scritto:
> >> > Sebastian Wiesinger sebastian.wiesinger at noris.net  [Tue Dec 4 >> 
> 08:53:56 CET 2018]
> >> > The RIPE NCC fees are anually. As a convenience *to you* you can also
> >> > pay them quarterly (we don't). This has been discussed multiple times.
> >>
> >> > Regards
> >>
> >> > Sebastian
> >>
> >> That is, in the light of the matter of this discussion, not quite >> 
> correct. Yes, the fees are annual - but they are charged on a pro >> rata 
> basis, so for example, LIRs don't pay a full annual fee of >> ?1,400 when 
> they become LIR in the last quarter of 2018. They only >> pay for the last 
> quarter of 2018.
> >>
> >> What the starter of the discussion criticizes is that LIRs not only >> 
> have to pay member fees retroactively, they also have to pay it when >> those 
> LIRs are not involved in the transfer at all.
> >>
> >> To be honest, I think that RIPE NCC is a very fair RIR, if not the >> 
> fairest. But I also admit that this rule is quite confusing: To >> prevent 
> impatient people from creating a LIR in the last quarter of a >> year, then 
> transfering the resource(s) and closing the LIR to make >> fast money, we 
> already have a rule which states that scarce resources >> cannot be 
> transfered within the first 24 months after the resource >> was allocated.
> >>
> >> There may be also other reasons for companies to create multiple LIRs >> 
> than making fast money. Many people do legitime business. Also in the >> 
> earlier days of RIPE NCC some companies had multiple LIRs.
> >>
> >> With that said, I don't think the way how fees are charged for such >> 
> transfers is consistent, it is quite confusing. On the other hand >> RIPE NCC 
> has a legitime interest to prevent people from making fast >> money; but here 
> we already have an effective rule: The 24 months >> restriction.
> >>
> >> So the question is: What is the reason for this rule if you think we >> 
> need it to be kept?
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- >>
> >> *From:*Dave Benwell <dave at it-communicationsltd.co.uk >> 
> </email/new/1/dave%40it-communicationsltd.co.uk>>
> >> *Sent:*Tuesday, 4. Dec 2018 ? 10:39 CET +0100
> >> *To:*Sebastian Wiesinger <sebastian.wiesinger at noris.net >> 
> </email/new/1/sebastian.wiesinger%40noris.net>>
> >> members-discuss at ripe.net </email/new/1/members-discuss%40ripe.net>
> >>
> >> *Subject:*Re: [members-discuss] LIR?s billing issues with RIPE NCC, >> 
> need support
> >>
> >> Additional accounts are normally setup to get more IP Space
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On >> 
> Behalf Of Sebastian Wiesinger
> >> Sent: 04 December 2018 07:54
> >> To: members-discuss at ripe.net
> >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] LIR?s billing issues with RIPE NCC, >> need 
> support
> >>
> >> * Juri <hostmaster at ntx.ru> [2018-12-04 08:09]:
> >> > I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time >> > 
> this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC >> > 
> should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show >> use. > 
> But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they >> didn't give > 
> any services for LIR instance.
> >>
> >> The RIPE NCC fees are anually. As a convenience *to you* you can also >> 
> pay them quarterly (we don't). This has been discussed multiple times.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Sebastian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> https://mailman.ripe.net/
> >> Unsubscribe: >> 
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/dave%40it-communic
> ationsltd.co.uk
> >>
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> >
> >
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