[members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents

Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?

I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.

I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.

Kind Regards,
Tom Corney

-----Original Message-----
From: Janos Zsako [mailto:zsako at iszt.hu] 
Sent: 25 April 2018 11:13
To: Tom Corney <Tom at portal-comms.co.uk>; members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents

Dear all,

> I strongly agree with Eric.

I also strongly agree with his initiative. I think it would be very nice to promote the technology of digital signatures, especially as the legal system in many of the countries of the RIPE NCC region allows its use.

> Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications.

I emphasize here that Eric mentioned only digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail. I do not support at all the idea to accept the latter.

> Fax and post are outdated.

I would not state this. Many companies and individuals feel much more comfortable with these old technologies than with digital signatures.
I am sure a large number of members would still use postal mail in the next couple of years.

Just as Tom, I also thought very few people use a fax machine nowadays, as in our environment (the Internet world) this is the case I think, but I made some short research not so long ago and found out that in many sectors it is still very popular, if one can believe articles like the following one:
https://enterprise.efax.com/blog/the-top-10-reasons-companies-continue-to-fax-in-2017

Also, the decision to accept digitally signed contracts needs some preparation.
There are a lot of things to think about, including archiving of certificates, and sometimes even software implementing some algorithms...

It is a lot of fun, but I do support the idea, and I would like to see the NCC eventually using this technology. At the same time, I think we have to allow for some preparation time.

A similar topic can be the use of digital signatures for invoices sent out to members. This could also help saving a couple of trees perhaps. I know the NCC does send out invoices by e-mail, but these are not digitally signed.
Signing the invoices could be implemented much easier I think.

Best regards,
Janos Zsako


> Allow email submission!
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Tom Corney
> 
> *From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On 
> Behalf Of *Erik Bais
> *Sent:* 24 April 2018 16:41
> *To:* members-discuss at ripe.net
> *Subject:* [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, 
> acceptance of documents
> 
> Dear  members,
> 
> I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
> 
> The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since 
> December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) 
> and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 
> (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)
> 
> We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that 
> most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax 
> machine…
> 
> <snip>
> 
> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
> 
> Article 2 – General
> 
> 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
> 
> 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
> 
> ·One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the 
> handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
> 
> ·A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
> 
> Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
> 
> </snip>
> 
> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
> 
> That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
> 
> However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
> 
> If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
> 
> This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
> 
> Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
> 
> <sarcasm>
> 
> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did ..  The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
> 
> So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the 
> postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something 
> that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … 
> https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-ver
> haal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/
> 
> </sarcasm>
> 
> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or 
> members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there 
> is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and 
> have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing 
> those options for invoices …
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Erik Bais
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The 
> service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive 
> anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
> http://www.claranet.co.uk
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The 
> service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive 
> anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
> http://www.claranet.co.uk
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> members-discuss mailing list
> members-discuss at ripe.net
> https://mailman.ripe.net/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/zsako%40iszt.hu
> 

________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
http://www.claranet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The
service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
http://www.claranet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________