[members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents

I hope it is just one more way to sign and not a replacement. We have no 
harmonised system accross the region.


Dima


On 4/25/18 1:12 PM, Janos Zsako wrote:
> Dear all,
>
>> I strongly agree with Eric.
>
> I also strongly agree with his initiative. I think it would be very 
> nice to
> promote the technology of digital signatures, especially as the legal 
> system
> in many of the countries of the RIPE NCC region allows its use.
>
>> Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc 
>> in so many different applications.
>
> I emphasize here that Eric mentioned only digitally signed documents, not
> paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail. I do 
> not
> support at all the idea to accept the latter.
>
>> Fax and post are outdated.
>
> I would not state this. Many companies and individuals feel much more
> comfortable with these old technologies than with digital signatures.
> I am sure a large number of members would still use postal mail in the
> next couple of years.
>
> Just as Tom, I also thought very few people use a fax machine 
> nowadays, as
> in our environment (the Internet world) this is the case I think, but 
> I made
> some short research not so long ago and found out that in many sectors 
> it is
> still very popular, if one can believe articles like the following one:
> https://enterprise.efax.com/blog/the-top-10-reasons-companies-continue-to-fax-in-2017 
>
>
> Also, the decision to accept digitally signed contracts needs some 
> preparation.
> There are a lot of things to think about, including archiving of 
> certificates,
> and sometimes even software implementing some algorithms...
>
> It is a lot of fun, but I do support the idea, and I would like to see 
> the
> NCC eventually using this technology. At the same time, I think we 
> have to
> allow for some preparation time.
>
> A similar topic can be the use of digital signatures for invoices sent 
> out
> to members. This could also help saving a couple of trees perhaps. I 
> know the
> NCC does send out invoices by e-mail, but these are not digitally signed.
> Signing the invoices could be implemented much easier I think.
>
> Best regards,
> Janos Zsako
>
>
>> Allow email submission!
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>>
>> Tom Corney
>>
>> *From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On 
>> Behalf Of *Erik Bais
>> *Sent:* 24 April 2018 16:41
>> *To:* members-discuss at ripe.net
>> *Subject:* [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, 
>> acceptance of documents
>>
>> Dear  members,
>>
>> I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century 
>> .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the 
>> RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, 
>> or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage 
>> of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
>>
>> The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law 
>> since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - 
>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) 
>> and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 
>> (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)
>>
>> We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that 
>> most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax 
>> machine…
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
>>
>> Article 2 – General
>>
>> 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by 
>> means of an offer and an acceptance.
>>
>> 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the 
>> following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
>>
>> ·One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the 
>> handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
>>
>> ·A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent 
>> document proving the registration of the Member with the national 
>> authorities.
>>
>> Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC 
>> Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE 
>> NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until 
>> these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC 
>> Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
>>
>> </snip>
>>
>> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one 
>> at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a 
>> document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax 
>> anymore these days..
>>
>> That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be 
>> printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database 
>> attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone 
>> would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
>>
>> However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of 
>> scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to 
>> allow a better usage of technology.
>>
>> If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a 
>> digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital 
>> signature.
>>
>> This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete 
>> their application ..
>>
>> Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the 
>> complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE 
>> office.
>>
>> <sarcasm>
>>
>> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The 
>> city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of 
>> horse and carriage in the city.
>>
>> So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the 
>> postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something 
>> that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … 
>> https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/
>>
>> </sarcasm>
>>
>> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or 
>> members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, 
>> there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via 
>> DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also 
>> allowing those options for invoices …
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Erik Bais
>>
>>
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