[members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Vpn means the true location of your users cannot be determined. If it cannot be determined then anonymous is correct even if proxy isn't accurate. Geolocation means: can be located. Vpn insures that cannot be done. So, they mark it as cannot be located. What others do with this data: ban your range or not, is up to them. Whether the algorithm is bullshit or not is besides the point. If they screw lots of ranges up, customers won't use them and will use someone else. If there aren't a lot of choices out there other than them, then: business opportunity for you to do it 'right' by your definition. RIR database isn't for location. It's for who a range is assigned to. The LIR assigned a range can then as per policy advertise it anywhere in the world they want depending on their network setup and needs. I am based in Bahrain but because of the level of peering in the region, I may chose to announce some of my range in London for example. Geolocation wise my users are still in Bahrain and so on and so forth. 


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
  Original Message  
From: admin at intl-alliance.com
Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 13:36
To: Sinan Özşekerci
Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the 
disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as 
they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. 
They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my 
network and want to trace my ip address on a site like 
www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my 
network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy 
information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm 
they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to 
determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy 
into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns.

Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't 
determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy 
because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they 
even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so 
many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they 
probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have 
to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they 
claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at 
the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up 
to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, 
but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand 
new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even 
implemented routing the damned things in our data center.

How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies 
before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that 
Edward!

On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
> I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a
> private company's database and helping them to  earn more money where
> they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing
> false information about them.
> 
> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first
> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
> 
> In our case , maximind is showing the location of  our IP subnets in
> a "Village" which of the  name is the same as our company just by
> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally
> different city.
> 
> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these
> "more specific" data is crap for me.
> 
> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect
> them to rely on their own database which has the information that I
> have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
> 
> FROM: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net
> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore
> SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM
> TO: admin at intl-alliance.com
> CC: members-discuss at ripe.net
> SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
> 
> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a
> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how
> they can be contacted.
> 
> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases,
> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be
> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE
> database.
> 
> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the
> "country" field in the "inetnum" object:
> 
>> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot
>> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to
>> countries"
> 
> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate,
> useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for
> fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only
> from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I
> could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy
> would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level)
> and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing
> their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
> 
> MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from
> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data
> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms.
> 
> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which
> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind
> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for
> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no
> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to
> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for
> any reason.
> 
> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and
> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is
> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result.
> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their
> database as accurate and up to date as possible.
> 
> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind
> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their
> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same
> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the
> location and details of the end user.
> 
> Edward Dore
> Freethought Internet
> 
> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote:
> 
> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If
> all
> ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they
> made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it
> 
> would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather
> their
> information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on
> their
> own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip
> information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply
> stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than
> 
> ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught
> the
> attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following
> email
> regarding this situation:
> 
> Dear Jared,
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet
> resources.
> 
> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile
> 
> their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database
> in
> account.
> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the
> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information
> are
> incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also
> 
> the reputation of the providers of this data.
> 
> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the
> stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from
> 
> MaxMind.
> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2]
> 
> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting
> information in our own tools.
> 
> --
> Thank you again for bring up this topic.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Marco Schmidt
> RIPE NCC
> 
> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
> 
>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've
>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their
>> inaccuracies
>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw
>> up
>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run
>> proxies
>> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies.
>> And
>> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they
>> are
>> totally different.
> 
>             I think your issue is more a business model
> problem than a registry
> or IP problem.
> 
>             What you are saying is that you depend on
> Maxmind providing the
> location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the
> location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other
> hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can,
> or will mark the location as unknown.
> 
>             So your business model depends on Maxmind
> agreeing to provide to
> their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And
> they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but
> that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this
> has to do with RIPE.
> 
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> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://stat.ripe.net
> [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
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