[members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
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admin at intl-alliance.com
admin at intl-alliance.com
Wed May 28 13:50:08 CEST 2014
Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation. On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote: > I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet > Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various > stakeholders and entities. > > I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to > maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing > emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the > language a bit. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng > Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 > To: Bill Lewis > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim > they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for > blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express > their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. > > same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they > are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each > content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can > do about it. > > but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for > this kind of discussion about private business... > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis <Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk> > wrote: >> hi, >> >> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites >> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different >> country. >> >> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making >> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service >> due to being outside the service coverage area. >> >> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content >> providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of >> Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from our >> experience. >> >> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them >> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting >> Maxmind etc.. >> >> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level >> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising >> data? >> >> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these >> databases with junk for the fun of it too.. >> >> -- >> Bill Lewis >> Kijoma Broadband >> >> >> >> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote: >> >> I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >> private company’s database and helping them to earn more money where >> they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >> false information about them. >> >> >> >> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >> >> >> >> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a >> “Village” which of the name is the same as our company just by >> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >> different city. >> >> >> >> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >> “more specific” data is crap for me. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect >> them to rely on their own database which has the information that I >> have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore >> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >> To: admin at intl-alliance.com >> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> >> >> >> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >> they can be contacted. >> >> >> >> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >> database. >> >> >> >> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >> “country” field in the “inetnum” object: >> >> >> >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" >> >> >> >> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, >> useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for >> fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only >> from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I >> could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy >> would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) >> and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing >> their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >> >> >> >> MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from >> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms. >> >> >> >> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for >> any reason. >> >> >> >> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and >> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their >> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >> >> >> >> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >> location and details of the end user. >> >> >> >> Edward Dore >> Freethought Internet >> >> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information >> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more >> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to >> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they >> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my >> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the >> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in >> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my >> mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, >> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: >> >> Dear Jared, >> >> Thank you for your email. >> >> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >> resources. >> >> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile >> their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database >> in account. >> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but >> also the reputation of the providers of this data. >> >> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >> MaxMind. >> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> >> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >> information in our own tools. >> >> -- >> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Marco Schmidt >> RIPE NCC >> >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >> >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never >> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open >> proxies as they are totally different. >> >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than a >> registry or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind >> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers >> rather than the location of users computers connected to them. >> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location >> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to >> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to >> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed >> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And >> nothing in this has to do with RIPE. >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. > It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use > of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the > intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received > this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and > e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this > message and including the text of the transmission received. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses.
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