[members-discuss] [Ticket#2012072401002498] Top 20 LIRs use 33% Allocated PA, 88% of LIRs use 10% Allocated PA.

On 30/07/2012, at 12.33, LIR <lir at lanto.it> wrote:

> It is incredible how misleading can be people when does not want to pay. 
> And more they consume, less want to pay.
What are they consuming, be specific and relate to the budgets for RIPE - RIPE has cost, what is the cost of running RIPE.

> 
> If you consume water, you don't pay support ticket, you pay liters of water.
Does not apply, RIPE is not selling water.

> 
> IPs, PI, PA, AS are public resources, and usage of public resources must 
> be paid, proportionally to usage. Less availability there is (like IP v4 
> addresses), the most you pay.
and by extension those with 32-bit ASN must pay double? sorry couldn't resist. The rest is serious though.

Every time we have this talk people spin out of control. The only way to cut this up, is to go through budget and consider
what resources are being spent in RIPE. And certainly IPs are NOT, and SHOULD NOT be thought as something you can pay for. IF we go this route will will end up having a radically different internet, as the big bucks will rule the networks - and only money will rule.

Getting a large chunk of IPs is possible if you obey the rules and you get them not because you pay a lot of money. 
Yes, you MIGHT have a business plan for connecting this, and it costs money. Hopefully those with big chunks overall benefit the internet
and makes it possible for others to create content, create services etc. Note also that these big ISPs also have more incentive and spends more on fighting malware, educating users.

Not that all ISPs are good (or bad, because there will also be some that MAXIMIZE their own profit) - but without IPs or if they have to pay according to IPs - every year. The public internet will split up in AOL-like clouds, using RFC1918, etc. 
(Some years ago AOL was kind of like an internet, just not really)

> 
> Most of big operators ask to end users something like 6 EUR/month for 
> each public IP, so I don't understand they must have those IP for free.
PLEASE dont

Today as IPv4 is getting scarce we are seeing operators charge even MORE for "public IPs"
- which hurt end-to-end and all our protocols badly, and yes multiple layers of NAT is really bad - trust me, or try it.

Getting a public IP should IMHO be free for all, in any part of the world - period!

IF you charge from RIPE by IPs, or some mumbo-jumbo algorithms calculating the "fair amount" it WILL make more ISPs charge for public IPs.

My goal is to keep the internet running without as much control, not as much detail-oriented accounting, not having CFOs going through my IP database again and again to shave off payments to RIPE. 

The current model suits me, and you are of course welcome to discuss, but can we please try to move the discussion along - repeating the same "large ISPs must pay according to IPs OWNED"-talk is getting very tedious, and it seems there is a lot of objection to using that model.

After all I guess we are all techs, and not bean-counters? so work creatively, move the world forward instead, thanks.

Best regards

Henrik

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tonino
> 
> 
> Il 30/07/2012 11:43, LeaderTelecom Ltd. ha scritto:
>> Dear Erik,
>> 
>> With all do respect for your effort, but this is not making anything 
>> easier than the current charging scheme AND it is still assigned 
>> resource based.
>> If you want to have a charging scheme based on used resources (FTE’s) 
>> of the NCC, go for a base fee with a charge per ticket at the RIPE 
>> NCC, like any other support contract you have.
>> Either Pay per ticket or pay a larger fee upfront and have X calls for 
>> free.
>> 
>> What is main value which RIPE? Assign IPs? Or provide Support? Of 
>> course both are very important. But Support - it is a way how to get 
>> resource. Regards IPv6 we can charge LIR, for example, 750 EUR for 
>> each additional IPv6 network /32. So in this way we don't need support 
>> for assigning IP addresses.
>> 
>> What do you think?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Alexey Ivanov
>> LeaderTelecom Ltd.
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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--
Henrik Lund Kramshøj, Follower of the Great Way of Unix
hlk at kramse.org hlk at solidonetworks.com 
+45 2026 6000 cand.scient CISSP
http://solidonetworks.com/ Network Security is a business enabler