[ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
Igor Romanenko igor at office.lucky.net
Fri Feb 20 19:12:36 CET 1998
> >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
> >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
> A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE
> A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community
> A> of the region served? RIR creation should be
> A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE,
> A> or am I missing something?
>
> Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide.
How will you find out that decision? By voting? Where is the
voting mechanics defined?
> Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems
> to me reasonable.
You missed the point. RIPE Office will be subsidiary of RIPE itself
and will be dependable on RIPE. That's some guarantee of fair play.
And we do not create new _essenses_ by establishing the Office, nor
do we redefine regions.
RIR on the other hand would be equivalent to RIPE. That's the absence
of guarantee. Got it?
>
> >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a
> >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
>
> A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political
> A> but geographical terms for defining region borders.
>
> I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense.
> To pity I am not so good in geography to define something
> for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East
> Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely,
That is including Hungary, Poland, right? And what part of China
would you like to be included? You see, you start with the predefined
region (predefined by political rather then geographical realities)
and now find it difficult to translate your definition into geographical
language.
> about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to
> unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do?
Again "RIR or RIPE Office"... Ugh... RIPE Office serving part of China?
BTW if you define the influential domain of the new RIR as "everyone
who likes the new RIR", you will abandon regional structure of RIRs
and introduce chaos.
> I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it
> frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition.
Are you deaf?
1. Because it's political, not geographical.
2. Because creating RIR for such a region will most definitely
meet objections from most LIRs in many FSU countries (Lithuania,
Eesti, Ukraine - just to name a few). How will resolve this problem?
If you (or Mr.Bourkov or Mr.Platonov) are so inclined to use the bottom-up
approach - then why not to start with Russia and then see - who is going
to be served by such a RIR? In another letter you (and Mr.Bourkov) have
answered why: You are afraid of your government and the international status
of the new RIR will make you feel better. A good reason for forcing
others into your boat...
> A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine?
> A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra".
> A> 1:1
>
> It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system
> was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they
> sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data --
An extremly dangerous assumption. Is Lithuania "pro"? Is Armenia "pro"?
They were not in Moscow, nevertheless.
> let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if
> I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries.
>
What a nice thing to do - just go and count LIRs! Disregarding the fact
that Russia has twice as many LIRs as Ukraine does. What a democratic
thought! You are late. I've already pointed out such thinking as the possible
example of why the future RIR will always express Russian point of view.
Thanx for demonstrating that my speculations were not pure theoretical. :(
>
> >> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.
>
> A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its
> A> main ideas in a moment.
>
> Well, it was available for far more time than a moment.
...and still there is the discussion on what the original intentions were...
> A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please.
> A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close
> A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and
> A> union are different things, aren't they?
> >>
> >> I meant benefits of uniting .(point)
>
> A> There are some benefits and some losses...
>
> Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice".
Argh!!! So what the choice is exactly?
> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare
^^^^^^^^^^
> >> free choice for all.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this?
>
> Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter.
^^^^^^^^^
No comments.
> A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian
> A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you
> A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know
> A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff
> A> is more knowlegeable.
>
> A> Agreed?
>
> No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know
> English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and
> nothing will change.
>
You are again mistaking LIR personnel for normal Internet users.
Forget it. Normal users of trolleybus need know nothing about driving.
Drivers ought to know though.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net
> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/
> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
Igor Romanenko @..@
Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----)
Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | )
http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " "
"On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog"
[ lir-wg Archives ]