[ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting

>>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin at gu.net> writes:
A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET)
A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet at rosnet.net>
A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net

A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:

S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people.
>> 
>> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-)

A> 	Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate
A> 	here?

In no way. What about yours? 

Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers.

>> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot
>> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ?

A> 	Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities
A> 	(as one can observe from the activities around the issue,
A> 	i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting).  Probably you also?

A> 	Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable
A> 	question here while asking what's wrong
A> 	with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a
A> 	show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?"
A> 	("this" means the current state of things).

A> 	Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach.  Ok,
A> 	dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET
A> 	where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot
A> 	live being served by RIPE directly any more;
A> 	you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR)
A> 	to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow.

A> 	Would you please mind explaining the reasons?

Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate
to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too.
And some would prefer be served in Moscow.

On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number
of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a
business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.

Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already
given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors.

A> 	Who else rises the hand?  Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow,
A> 	RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who
A> 	doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men,
A> 	two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants
A> 	to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope
A> 	of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice
A> 	of where to be served from those countries.

Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow.
We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here
in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult
present at that meeting.  The resume of it was sent to all and we are
awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.

A> 	It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even
A> 	to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever
A> 	it means).  It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle...

A> 	My conclusion:

A> 	* I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to
A> 	* be obsoleted.  I'd also like a new edition, say  ripe-167+
A> 	* to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation
A> 	* removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship
A> 	* more representative than a single man from Moscow.  Where
A> 	* is (so hyped) community, anyway?

A> 	If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have
A> 	a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support
A> 	from the *representative* community, -- then who needs
A> 	all this show?  If the scope of interest in a RIR is
A> 	limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National
A> 	Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care.

>> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.

A> 	This statement of yours contradicts directly with the
A> 	approach of ripe-167 document.

I am afraid you mistreat the approach.

>> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.

A> 	Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please.
A> 	(Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close
A> 	to ripe-167's content at all).  No offense: friendship and
A> 	union are different things, aren't they?

I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of 
everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it?

Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my
own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not.

As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit
vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point
of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me.

>> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered
>> by the fact somebody else wants ?

A> 	Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them)
A> 	have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite"
A> 	us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.

I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare
free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you
point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is
a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by
definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time.

I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow
such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ).

>> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still
>> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can
>> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration
>> the facts no matter if we like them or not.

A> 	The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead.  Do we need another
A> 	union, called "Russian Union", instead?  Oh thanks... maybe
A> 	sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear
A> 	and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides...
A> 	if there will be any.  But not now, please!

Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside.
And it's done ;-) (joke)

I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are
not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than
Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.


Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or
later or never! That is your choice only.

As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already.
And we try it.

And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does
not like it right now ( or even will never like it )?

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Sergey A. Mukhin			|    violet at rosnet.net
>> Network Administrator		|    http://violet.rosnet.net/
>> Russian Telecommunications Network	|    Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
>> Moscow, Russia			|	  + 7 095 755 85 88
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *     If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.     *
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

A> Best regards,
A> Andrew Stesin

A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE


Kind regards,


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sergey A. Mukhin			|    violet at rosnet.net
    Network Administrator		|    http://violet.rosnet.net/
    Russian Telecommunications Network	|    Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
    Moscow, Russia			|	  + 7 095 755 85 88
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*     If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.     *
------------------------------------------------------------------------