PI vs PA Address Space

  > Tony Li <tli at cisco.com> writes:
  > 
  > [cc list reduced]

Why exclude nanog?

  > Simple: everyone gets a chunk of space out of their provider.  What's
  > so hard here?  You know the (local) roots of the tree, correct?  
  > If you don't use the global roots and then truncate at your geographic
  > boundary.

I do not understand what you mean by "roots of the tree".

  >    Even if you assume that you know who the TRDs are, and thus can determin
  > e
  >    who is connected to a single TRD only, you are not there yet: There is a
  >    problem with organisations who re-assign address space.  Typically ISPs
  >    do this.  If some of them, let's call them resellers for convenience,
  >    were *forced by policy* to use PA space of *their* provider for this, it
  >    would solidly lock them into that provider. 
  > 
  > Same argument, same answer: they can renumber.  I suspect that a
  > provider can renumber MUCH more easily than any customer can.

The provider probably. But all their customers would have to renumber too!

  >    Any move of provider would cause the reseller to require all its
  >    customers to renumber.
  > 
  > Correct.
  > 
  >    This just will not fly *as a result of general policy*. 
  > 
  > Well, turn off the net, 'cause nwe can't support it.  That's simply
  > address ownership by the ISP.  No.  Nyet.  Rien.  Nuts.  Phooey.
  > 
  >    Any policy that requires this will be perceived as too restrictive to
  >    trade and competition and therefore not be implementable.  
  > 
  > Then renumbering customers is out the question too.  Really, this is a
  > unacceptable argument Daniel.  You're saying that it's ok for
  > customers to renumber, but if the provider has to renumber, that's a
  > problem?  How do you think the customers will feel about that?

A customer as a single organisation can decide unilaterally whether to 
move provider and renumber and plan accordingly.

A reseller will have to coordinate a move with all customers.  This is
impossible to do unless renumebring is fully automatic and transparent. 
It is not at present and in the forseeable future.  Therefore the reseller
is solidly locked into their provider. No reseller of reasonable size 
will therefore agree to take address space from their provider.  
If they cannot get address space other than via their
provider they will scream "restraint of trade" and/or seriously attack
the regional registries and IANA who will have little defense. 
Government regulation will be called for and gladly provided by the
world's governments. 

  >    So how do we determine who gets a chunk of PA space *of their own*
  >    (note this is subtely different from PI space) and who gets locked
  >    into their transit ISP, TRD, ... .
  > 
  > Who is providing _backbone_ connectivity?

What is the _backone_?
I though we had just getten rid of the last ISP who claimed to be "the
backbone". 
Everyone and their mother will claim that they are or want to be,
on all levels.

  > It's called good "renumbering" technology.  It solves all of these
  > problems.  

It does not exist. It is not deployed. It is not even defined.

Daniel