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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">+1 to getting this circulated today<br>
      <br>
      On 16/05/2019 15:03, Brian Nisbet wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Sasha,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We
            absolutely don’t want people nit picking and wordsmithing by
            committee just about works, it doesn’t by community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
            think we can put it out there and solicit a response, but it
            will have to be framed as something that is happening, and
            while it will be an open discussion, nor will every point be
            addressed, but we as a TF (it’s absolutely not all on you at
            all!) need to be able to justify our decisions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So
            a lot of it will be, “Please provide any feedback, which
            will be considered and possibly included in a 2<sup>nd</sup>
            draft.” I’m happy to lead that process on the mailing list,
            as others may be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For
            me, the mandate will come from a general consensus of the
            community. The accountability… to the RIPE Chair and (soon
            to exist) Vice-Chair? Or to the Exec Board? I’m hoping
            others might have some thoughts here as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There
            does have to be some appeal (and the groups above might
            work, with the Vice-Chair position in existence it might
            cover some of the problems with a potential Chair being in
            violation of the CoC?), but I haven’t got anything better
            than the existing structures and all of them have some
            issues, so which are the least bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I’m
            very worried, given it’s the Friday before the meeting, that
            really presenting this at RIPE78 is going to be difficult.
            But given there were no objections, I think what I can do
            today is formally present the text as is to HPH and see what
            he reckons. (It doesn’t have to be me, at all, but I’m happy
            to do it.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Brian Nisbet <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Service Operations Manager<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education
            and Research Network<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin
            D01 X8N7, Ireland<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">+35316609040 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.heanet.ie">www.heanet.ie</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA
            No. 20036270<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                  lang="EN-US"> diversity
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:diversity-bounces@ripe.net"><diversity-bounces@ripe.net></a>
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sasha Romijn<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday 14 May 2019 19:51<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [diversity] CoC Draft & Action
                  Items<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Brian,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I think these are good next steps. I am
              a bit concerned about how to handle the response from the
              wider community. We indeed don’t want dozens of e-mails
              nitpicking every word, and this is a document where that
              risk is more significant than your average RIPE document.
              Also because there is a limited amount of time and energy
              I can put into responding and explaining things -
              responding to comments from 8 people on this list is still
              quite doable, but if there’s going to be 40 people
              commenting on the RIPE list, there’s limits to what I can
              and will do. Unless someone starts funding my work.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">So, some thought in advance about how
              we could smoothen this process would be useful. I have no
              ideas.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Regarding the CoC team structure,
              mandate, process, etc., there will be questions if we
              circulate the text without this covered, so we’d need to
              explain that work on that is still ongoing. I expect this
              may be a more controversial point for the community,
              because it creates a new power structure that does not
              entirely fall under existing structures.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Someone also raised, in the google doc
              comments, concerns about an option for reconsideration of
              a decision by different people, if someone feels the
              decision of the CoC team was unjustified.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">As I said in my recent e-mail, I have
              some early ideas about the team layout - those are in no
              way fixed. But I don’t really have any ideas on mandate,
              accountability, and at the same time guaranteeing
              independence, preventing excessive bureaucracy or fights
              on ripe-list about every CoC decision. We do need to start
              working on this to have any chance of putting something
              into operation by RIPE79.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">On 10 May 2019, at 10:51, Brian
                    Nisbet <<a href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>>
                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">So, my thoughts on how we
                      should proceed on all of this. These are just
                      thoughts btw.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
                    <li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
                      level1 lfo1">
                      Present the full text to the RIPE Chair and
                      discuss next steps<o:p></o:p></li>
                    <li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
                      level1 lfo1">
                      Circulate the text to the community<o:p></o:p></li>
                    <li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
                      level1 lfo1">
                      Possible LT at RIPE78<o:p></o:p></li>
                    <li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
                      level1 lfo1">
                      Further input from the community<o:p></o:p></li>
                    <li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
                      level1 lfo1">
                      Into operation for RIPE79<o:p></o:p></li>
                  </ul>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">What I certainly don’t want is
                      wordsmithing by the community, nor would I expect
                      the WG Chairs or the PC to be the CoC team.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">This is all pretty high level,
                      but it’s a notion? I think we would need Mirijam
                      or Amanda to make sure that HPH has some cycles to
                      look at this over the next few days, without
                      rushing him?<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Brian<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Brian Nisbet<span
                          class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Service Operations Manager<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's
                        National Education and Research Network<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock,
                        IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">+35316609040<span
                          class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                          href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a><span
                          class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                          href="http://www.heanet.ie/"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="color:purple">www.heanet.ie</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Registered in Ireland, No.
                        275301. CRA No. 20036270<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
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                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                              class="apple-converted-space"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
                              lang="EN-US">Sasha Romijn <<a
                                href="mailto:sasha@mxsasha.eu"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">sasha@mxsasha.eu</a>><span
                                class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                              <b>Sent:</b><span
                                class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday
                              7 May 2019 14:43<br>
                              <b>To:</b><span
                                class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Brian
                              Nisbet <<a
                                href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>><br>
                              <b>Cc:</b><span
                                class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                                href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
                              <b>Subject:</b><span
                                class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                              [diversity] CoC Draft & Action Items</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">The draft is waiting for me
                          to merge some more suggested changes and fix
                          some things raised in the thread.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">If all goes well, I can
                          wrap that up this week.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Based on the responses on
                          the draft, we seem to mostly agree on it
                          otherwise.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">As Amanda said, there is
                          still the question of the CoC team, which
                          handles CoC incidents, and how they get a
                          mandate. I have some<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><u>rough</u></b><span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span>thoughts
                          on that.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">As I’ve argued before, I
                          think this role should not rest with the WG
                          chairs or with the RIPE chair. The best option
                          is likely a specific CoC team. Considering the
                          structure of this community with a mix of
                          online spaces and conferences, my first
                          thought is one team, of which at least 4
                          people should be present and available at any
                          RIPE meeting. Attending (all) RIPE meetings
                          should not be a requirement, as RIPE meetings
                          are not accessible to all, so it would be
                          exclusionary. Having a single team helps some
                          continuity, ongoing development, and
                          consistency.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">I’m not sure whether we
                          should retain the trusted contacts as a
                          separate team. I guess that could be very
                          confusing.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">The team needs to have an
                          independent mandate, which includes measures
                          like banning of a person from a conference, or
                          terminating an ongoing talk.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Regarding who should be in
                          it, I’m not sure how to work that out within
                          the governance models of the RIPE community.
                          In Django, the first CoC committee was formed
                          ages ago, and mostly consisted of people
                          involved in introducing the CoC at the time.
                          The committee self-governs, asking for new
                          volunteers when needed. The committee has a
                          mandate from the board of the Django Software
                          Foundation, and is also accountable to them.
                          That board is in turn elected by the
                          membership of that foundation. So in general
                          there is self-management and delegation of
                          mandate, but with accountability and
                          reporting. The board can intervene if needed.
                          I believe the Python Software Foundation has
                          or is working on a similar model.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">CoC team members also need
                          to know what they’re getting into, and ensure
                          they have sufficient availability. Especially
                          on-site at a meeting, action may need to
                          happen fast. Which means being reachable and
                          able to change plans suddenly. Also, CoC work
                          can be emotionally intense. Sometimes it’s
                          really hard to decide whether it’s a violation
                          and what should be done, sometimes incidents
                          occur that are very serious and have a heavy
                          impact. A lot of empathy work is involved. It
                          also means your own behaviour is under the
                          heaviest scrutiny of pretty much anyone at the
                          conference, because as a team member you set
                          the example of what is acceptable. This
                          extends to every interaction related to the
                          conference. It means you absolutely can not
                          get a bit drunk at the party and blurt out a
                          few sexist jokes - if we fail to set an
                          example, the process falls apart (the #1
                          reason for me not to report incidents is
                          because I don’t trust the response team). And,
                          not everyone will like every decision you
                          make, so especially team members from minority
                          groups are at an increased risk of abusive
                          behaviour from others. <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">For training my first
                          choice: <a
                            href="https://otter.technology/code-of-conduct-training/"
                            moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                              style="color:purple">https://otter.technology/code-of-conduct-training/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">I have not followed this
                          training myself yet, but I have universally
                          heard good things about it.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">(And CoC team members
                          should not be required to pay out of pocket
                          for this, as that would be exclusionary.)<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">So, a big question is:
                          within the processes of the RIPE community,
                          how does a CoC response team get a mandate? To
                          whom is it accountable and how? Can it
                          self-manage members?<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">And also essential: we
                          should prevent the CoC team from being dragged
                          into months of discussion for every decision,
                          just because one or two people who don’t like
                          it stir up discussion on a mailing list - I do
                          see this as a potential risk in the RIPE
                          community due to its structure. Also, no
                          process may depend on a single person.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">(I will not be attending
                          RIPE78 btw)<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">On 7 May 2019, at
                                15:00, Brian Nisbet <<a
                                  href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                    style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a>>
                                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">Folks,<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I'm just wondering, where do we,
                                  collectively, believe the action item
                                  (or similar) lies at present with the
                                  draft for the new CoC.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  From my reading there was an amount of
                                  feedback provided, but is the draft at
                                  a point where it can be officially
                                  shared with HPH, other stakeholders
                                  and the community, or is there more
                                  work to do? We have under two weeks
                                  before RIPE78 begins and I worry that
                                  we aren't in a good place to share our
                                  work (while absolutely noting that
                                  people might be waiting for me to do
                                  something?).<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Thanks,<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Brian<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Brian Nisbet<span
                                    class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                                  Service Operations Manager<br>
                                  HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National
                                  Education and Research Network<br>
                                  1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC,
                                  Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland<br>
                                  +35316609040<span
                                    class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                                    href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                      style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a><span
                                    class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                                    href="http://www.heanet.ie/"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                      style="color:purple">www.heanet.ie</span></a><br>
                                  Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA
                                  No. 20036270<br>
                                  <br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
                                  diversity mailing list<br>
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                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                      style="color:purple">diversity@ripe.net</span></a><br>
                                  <a
                                    href="https://mailman.ripe.net/"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                      style="color:purple">https://mailman.ripe.net/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
                      diversity mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
                      <a
                        href="https://mailman.ripe.net/"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net">diversity@ripe.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.ripe.net/">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
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