<html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <tt>Hi David</tt> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/06/2017 21:27, David Hilario wrote: </div> <blockquote cite="mid:CANoO2f5zOOz=J4kQcESwUkSgT=C2a6LEvPZVcHtOSey0hA1e+Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hi, I see the decision of collecting the Data is already made, so lets move on.</pre> </blockquote> As I said I have no problem with the concept of collecting this data. But this data must be collected anonymously and not anonymised after collection. cheers denis <blockquote cite="mid:CANoO2f5zOOz=J4kQcESwUkSgT=C2a6LEvPZVcHtOSey0hA1e+Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> Earlier on it was hinted at diversity for a Gender, Sexual and religious point survey, now we are back to solely gender is being discussed. What data will be collected, is it only gender now? What does "diversity" plan to do with the collected data? What is the intention of the data collection? Will the aggregated data per meeting be made public? David Hilario IP Manager Larus Cloud Service Limited p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net">d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net</a> On 20 June 2017 at 13:57, denis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk"><ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hi Shane On 20/06/2017 11:38, Shane Kerr wrote: Denis, At 2017-06-20 00:20:22 +0000 denis walker <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk"><ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk></a> wrote: Sorry for making this personal, but I grew up in a small working class town where, had my sexuality been known at that time, people would have kicked the s**t out of me. I had an older gay cousin and even some people within the family made fun of him. But that was nothing compared to what can happen to people in many parts of the RIPE region if it is known they have any gender diversity issues. My cousin was laughed at by some members of the family. In some places in 2017, members of a family will murder relatives to protect the 'honour' of their family. I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone living in an oppressive situation. I don't deny that people are tortured, killed, and their families harmed for many unjust reasons - including their gender identity. There seems to be some strange disjoint here between 'collecting data' and what this data actually means. As a software developer and analyst I also love to play around with data and find out interesting things. Especially when the results lead on to some significant change or improvement. I did so much of that with the contents of the RIPE Database for so many years. But we are not collecting details of age and colour preferences for shoes. This is sensitive, personal data. If it is leaked or hacked it can cost lives. I am not trying to be melodramatic here. This is the reality of the age we are currently living in. I don't think there is an issue. I disagree with your repeated assertion that it is especially sensitive and can cost lives. When I buy an airline ticket I have to say "Dhr." ("sir") or "Mevr." ("madam"). When I check into a hotel I have to hand over my passport, which has my sex on it. Many driver's licenses have sex on them. Swedish national identity number is different depending on whether you are a man or a female. I'm sure others on the list can think of dozens of more examples where your gender or sex are non-private. In all of these examples you are referring to your biological gender. This is a simple binary option, male/female. It is set at birth, has legal significance and for many people cannot be changed no matter what happens later in your life. When you start to talk about gender diversity and fluidity you are into territory that some governments and some societies take great issue with. This is one of the things you are trying to measure and are asking people to (opt in to) specify. Further, as has been repeatedly pointed out, this is opt-in. Anyone who feels concerned should not opt-in. I know you feel like people will feel pressured to participate and put false information in, but I cannot imagine any scenario where we could make people feel 100% safe with an Internet-based registration system. So the only options we are left with are to not gather information because maybe someone might feel pressured to lie, or to go ahead with a reasonable balance of privacy & information gathering. I don't have any issue with collecting this type of information, processing it and working to improve diversity at RIPE meetings. My issue is the way you propose to do it. Even here you have subconsciously linked the gathering of this information with the registration. And that is the problem. You are telling people that it is anonymous. But it isn't anonymous. There is a simple cross reference point between this data and the identifiable registration data. Even if the RIPE NCC says "of course no one would make that cross reference", the fact that it is there means it is not anonymous. If you do it this way, you should not tell people it will be collected anonymously. You should tell people the results will be anonymised. That is significantly different. I don't know why we are even having to have this conversation. There are reputable companies that will operate surveys and the data they collect is disconnected from any identifiable data. Use one of them. You simply cannot take short cuts with such sensitive data. We are having this conversation because there are differing opinions. I think that I understand your concerns, I just do not agree that they are valid. Nevertheless, I am interested to hear of what your suggestions are for such reputable companies, or at least what selection criteria you would recommend for choosing one. I have no personal experience of organising such surveys. But I have sat in many presentations of staff survey results while at the RIPE NCC. As far as I could see, these companies managed the survey, processed the results and provided anonymous data back to the RIPE NCC. The criteria is that no one should have access to the raw data from both the survey and the registration. cheers denis Cheers, -- Shane _______________________________________________ Diversity mailing list <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.ripe.net/">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </body> </html>