[diversity] Feedback, including a piece of friendly and hopefully constructive criticism

As long as I've been organising the shirts, we've always had two 
different cuts.

This meeting was literally the first meeting (afaik) in 17 meetings 
where we've had one cut of shirts. We made this choice because we've had 
requests for several years now to do long-sleeve/baseball style shirts. 
We got samples in and I had men and women in the office try the shirts 
on - I got positive feedback on the style/cut, so we ordered them.

We offer shirts - regardless of cut - in a size range of XS (and XXS 
where possible) to 4XL.

Fashion preferences aside for how a shirt conforms to a body shape, 
there should be a shirt available to fit (most) bodies given the size 
range we made available.

Thanks,

Amanda

On 22/10/2018 16:44, Gergana Petrova wrote:
> Hi Amanda,
>
> While I agree with the point that a unisex t-shirt, aka a t-shirt with 
> a standard (male) cut, may suit some individual women well, let's not 
> fall in the trap of pointing out individual opinions and experiences.
>
> A fact of life is that if you go to any store catering for adults, 
> men's and women's clothing have different cuts.
>
> While I agree that there will be different tastes regarding V-necks 
> etc, we are not talking about fashion choices here, but about 
> biological differences between the sexes (breasts, waist, hips) that 
> require different cuts.
>
> Obviously anybody with a straight figure is very welcome to take a 
> straight-cut T-shirt and anybody with a curvy figure is welcome to 
> take a more curvy-cut T-shirt, regardless of their gender.
>
> I am not denying that there might still be people who fall through the 
> cracks, for example someone (either gender) who is very very small, or 
> very very large. I'm also not saying that offering two cuts would make 
> everybody happy (some won't fit well in either).
>
> However, if we continute to consider women's cut a fashion choice or 
> something unusual or extra, what sort of gender diversity are we 
> planning to achieve?
>
> Can we please not only offer one choice, just because a few women 
> don't mind wearing unisex (aka men's cut) T-shirts?
>
> Thanks!
> Gergana
>
> On 22/10/2018 16:09, Amanda Gowland wrote:
>> Getting the t-shirts right *is* really hard...speaking from 
>> experience after organising the shirts for 17 meetings.
>>
>> I had a supplier that would custom-cut the shirts, we had them custom 
>> labelled and people still complained (too thin, too long, too short). 
>> Unfortunately they went bankrupt.
>>
>> Ultimately, the way a t-shirt fits is going to be a very personal 
>> thing. Some women like them tight, some want them loose. Some want 
>> shorter sleeves, others longer. Some want a crew-cut neck, others 
>> want a v-neck.
>>
>> With 800 people, it's hard to make everyone happy. Rest assured that 
>> we try our best and listen to feedback - but there will inevitably 
>> always be people that wish the shirt fit their body differently.
>>
>> I heard from many women (and men) that they loved the shirts, for the 
>> record, I also have a waist and boobs and the RIPE 77 unisex shirt 
>> fit me well - as it did my male colleague:
>> https://twitter.com/ripemeeting/status/1052106331921047552
>>
>> Other times, I didn't like the fit of the shirt on my body but others 
>> loved them. We can't make everyone happy but we do try our best.
>>
>> My point being that every body is different, so saying a unisex shirt 
>> doesn't work for a woman isn't necessarily true.
>>
>> On 22/10/2018 15:09, Julia Freeman wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:55:42PM +0200, Gergana Petrova wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> About the T-shirts, Amanda, I don't think Theresa was suggesting to
>>>> have only "unisex" T-shirts - she suggeted having two types -
>>>> "fitted" and "unisex". Maybe I am wrong about this, but I haven't
>>>> heard any "opposite feedback" (coming from women, presumably?)
>>>> suggesting we should only have one type of T-shirts for everybody...
>>>>
>>>> Unisex is not a mix between the male and female cut. The unisex cut
>>>> is basically identical to the cut traditionally associated with men
>>>> (same chest, waist, and hip measurements).
>>>>
>>>> Basically it's is giving everybody men's cut, but telling women to
>>>> be happy about it, since it's labelled "unisex". I don't see why
>>>> RIPE NCC should only offer "unisex", especially given the diversity
>>>> efforts we are making. The biology of men and women is different.
>>>> Women have breasts, smaller waist, bigger hips. That's why unisex
>>>> (aka men's cut) does not fit women well. I support Theresa's
>>>> suggestion to offer two cuts. As for the labeling, I also support
>>>> labeling them "fitted" and "loose" (rather than "mens" and "womens")
>>>> or any other way, so people can make up their mind themselves.
>>>>
>>>> In conclusion, I do not believe women should be happy with a staight
>>>> cut, that doesn't fit their biology, simply because it is labelled
>>>> "unisex". I think we should offer two cuts and lablel them in a
>>>> gender-neutral way.
>>> It's not just about the cut, care needs to be taken in how the 
>>> printing is
>>> laid out. What looks fine on a flat male chest, can look at best weird,
>>> and at worst offensive on a large female chest (think parts of 
>>> designs cut
>>> ff by boob shape). T-Shirt design is hard.
>>>
>>> Calling a traditional mens cut "unisex" is just wrong. I like the 
>>> "fitted"
>>> and "unfitted" labelling.
>>>
>>> J
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
>>>
>>> iD8DBQFbzcwH42M0lILkmGIRAg6fAJsFI9zbtrh0le+9758UyRUr+GJzfACeNa9Q
>>> U4uxClOrygso6DgW/d3ytGs=
>>> =j+Ql
>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> diversity mailing list
>>> diversity at ripe.net
>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> diversity mailing list
>> diversity at ripe.net
>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> diversity mailing list
> diversity at ripe.net
> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>