[diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration

Denis,

On 03/06/2017 11:48, denis walker wrote:
> HI Brian
>
> There are a number of points here that I must take issue with.
>
> "I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong"
> You cannot afford to get things wrong with this. In Chechnya gay and
> transgendered people are being murdered. In Russia and most of the
> middle east (where the next RIPE Meeting is to be held), to be
> identified as gay or transgendered also puts your safety at risk. What
> is 'important' is that you don't put anyone's safety at risk.

Yes, I'm very aware of what is happening across the world and where the 
next RIPE meeting will be. We will get things wrong. The protection of 
data was not what I was referring to. More that we need forward momentum 
on this and that in general, rather than in the specific, perfect is the 
enemy of good/done. I would imagine that a number of people, when faced 
with such a question and the assurances from the NCC that the data will 
not be connected to them in any way, will still opt-out. That is their 
choice.

> I am surprised you think the topic of how this data is collected
> anonymously is just a detail to be passed onto someone else and to think
> about it is considered micro management. This is a core issue. What
> questions you ask are details. This data MUST be collected by a third
> party organisation and never in any way associated with identifiable
> registration data.

I didn't say the topic, I said the details. And the questions asked will 
be decided by this group. The mechanisms of the registration system are 
up to the NCC, with guidance from the community. We need to be happy 
with the robustness of that protection, not design it for them.

> If you don't do it this way the data you collect is meaningless anyway.
> Making it 'opt-in' does not help. Anyone from parts of the region where
> it is dangerous to be identified in this way will not simply 'opt-out'.
> That in itself is a statement. They will opt-in and lie. That is what I
> would do.

RIPE75 will be a single data point and there are all sorts of issues 
with what we can take from that, even if we got perfect information from 
all attendees. While it would be awful if our transgender community 
members from those parts of the region felt they had to choose one of 
the binary options I do not believe it will skew the data that much.

This sounds like I'm minimising things, which I am not. I'm trying to 
propose a way to start collecting (anonymised) data as one initiative 
and I am concerned that if we decided that perfection of completed data 
is a necessary first step at whichever meeting we start at, then we will 
never start. Sadly the evil people that would harm someone for being 
"different" to their norm aren't going to go away any time soon. And I 
recognise the privilege I have that this isn't an immediate danger for me.

> I would like some comment from the RIPE NCC on how they propose to
> collect this sensitive information. And yes I do want technical details,
> not just some vague comment and assurance. I will scrutinize the way
> this is to be done and if I don't consider it safe I will continue to
> object.

Yes, we don't expect to go forward without that. That will be happening 
next week and it's possible the NCC will still say they're not happy it 
can be done. I don't, as I said, see this group as being responsible for 
managing the technical details of this, but then again, I'm not in 
charge of this group, so it is not solely my decision.

> I object to this being done in a rushed (iterative) way for RIPE 75.

And you are taking the wrong meaning from my use of the word iterative. 
I mean the ongoing process of increasing diversity in the community must 
be iterative.

If the NCC are not happy they can anonymise the data or if the community 
here aren't happy with the plan, then yes, we must pause and go back to 
our original plan of first collecting the data at RIPE76. I do worry 
what objections will be raised then and whether we will strive for 
perfection and achieve nothing over a long period of time?

Brian

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet at heanet.ie>
> *To:* diversity at ripe.net
> *Sent:* Saturday, 3 June 2017, 10:59
> *Subject:* Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration
>
> Morning,
>
> Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK
> and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course
> different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've
> used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche.
>
> All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around
> initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection.
>
> There is no question that any such information must be separated out and
> proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these
> systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to
> implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as
> a group, micromanage every aspect of this.
>
> This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going
> to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of
> the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a
> strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach
> perfection.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brian
>
> Brian Nisbet
> Network Operations Manager
> HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
> 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
> +35316609040 brian.nisbet at heanet.ie <mailto:brian.nisbet at heanet.ie>
> www.heanet.ie
> Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
>
> denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:
>> Hi Leslie
>>
>>
>>
>> "RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english
>> terms can vary widely between different areas.  In the US, the term
>> 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely
>> accepted nomenclature. I find
>> http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology
>> to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."
>>
>>
>> You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders.
>> But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for
>> example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as
>> 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with
>> 'cross-dresser'.
>>
>> It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term
>> "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.".
>> That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or tranny)
>> and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are
>> often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site
>> you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in
>> Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many transvestites
>> meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".
>>
>> But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I
>> was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)
>>
>> cheers
>> denis
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diversity mailing list
>> Diversity at ripe.net <mailto:Diversity at ripe.net>
>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diversity mailing list
> Diversity at ripe.net <mailto:Diversity at ripe.net>
> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diversity mailing list
> Diversity at ripe.net
> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>