<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Ronald,<br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">> I can and will provide concrete evidence and examples of the erosion of<br>
> the validity of IP block WHOIS records. I know of plenty such in the<br>
> RIPE region</span></font><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
- I believe the RIPE NCC will investigate cases of incorrect / false IP ownership information on the RIPE Database if you email them with the details (maybe you have done this already anyway).</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Regarding GDPR I believe the RIPE NCC and RIPE Database are under Dutch and EU law. RIPE NCC has a legal team. How far GDPR goes in practice with the RIPE Database needs a lawyer I expect.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Kind regards</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Scott Donald<br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> db-wg <db-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Ronald F. Guilmette via db-wg <db-wg@ripe.net><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 February 2021 03:43<br>
<b>To:</b> denis walker <ripedenis@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Database WG <db-wg@ripe.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [db-wg] The DBTF needs your feedback!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div class="PlainText">In message <CAKvLzuHcgqrbZC_1r6_ziJz0NKrSWAVYk4VQJWZ+ut+6Cey8iQ@mail.gmail.com>,
<br>
denis walker <ripedenis@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
>Although I have nothing to do with the questionnaire, I am curious<br>
>what information you believe 'someone' wants to hide, or maybe you<br>
>think has already been hidden, that has never before been hidden in<br>
>this traditionally open whois?<br>
<br>
It is quite clear and apparent that some people in the RIPE community,<br>
and perhaps even some people in this WG, want to bend over backwards to <br>
accomodate -alleged- concerns that -ostensibly- spring from GDPR.<br>
<br>
I'm sorry to have to say this, but you Europeans have grossly over-reacted<br>
to the avarice and greed of what are admittedly mostly American social<br>
media companies, including but not limited to Facebook, and their<br>
rapacious and never ending quest for yet more personal data and yet<br>
more ways to monetize that. Their actions are and were totally egregious,<br>
but the pendulum has now swung in the entire opposite directly, and by<br>
so doing is daily hampering legitimate investigations of law enforcement<br>
and others.<br>
<br>
In short the over-compensation for the illness called Facebook had given<br>
us GDPR, and with the same predictability as night following day, we are<br>
now in a situation where WHOIS records for -domain names- are by and<br>
large useless for -any- purpose, because greedy and self-seving domain<br>
name registrars around the world have used GDPR as a convenient excuse<br>
to do what they all have wanted to do for a long long time and for their<br>
own selfish business reasons, i.e. redacting literally EVERYTHING from<br>
domain name WHOIS records, with total disregard for the dividing line<br>
between personal information and non-personal information.<br>
<br>
Now I see this same sickness and over-compensation starting to influence<br>
and affect the WHOIS records for IP blocks and ASNs. I was hoping that<br>
it would not come to this, but the privacy-at-all-costs maniacs have<br>
now teamed up with the cyber-criminal interests to try to erase ALL of<br>
the historical vestiges of WHOIS, even for IP space.<br>
<br>
I can and will provide concrete evidence and examples of the erosion of<br>
the validity of IP block WHOIS records. I know of plenty such in the<br>
RIPE region, in the ARIN region, and in the AFRINIC region. But I'll<br>
save those examples for subsequent messages. In the meantime, to<br>
answer your question more directly, you asked what is it that I fear may<br>
be hidden that was previously open. I call your attention to what I had<br>
already noted about the unambiguously biased way in which the survey<br>
questions were formulated so as to produce the (apparently desired)<br>
result of creating a seeming consdensus to discard, delete, and redact<br>
various parts of what we have historically known to be "WHOIS". Here<br>
again is Exhibit A in support of my point:<br>
<br>
<br>
>> *) QUESTION: What would you prefer?<br>
>><br>
>> 1) To be beaten and strangled to death?<br>
>> 2) To die of a horrible communicable infectious disease?<br>
>> 3) To be mercifully euthanized in your sleep?<br>
>><br>
>> How about (4) NONE OF THE ABOVE?...<br>
>>...<br>
>> Here is a concrete example from the questionaire:<br>
>><br>
>> * 16. Rank this contact information from most (1) to least (3) important<br>
>> to facilitate Internet operations in the RIPE Database:<br>
>><br>
>> Email address<br>
>> Phone number<br>
>> Fax number<br>
>><br>
>> Well, hardly anyone ever sends FAXes anymore, so that one is a no-brainer.<br>
>> But the way the question has been formulated, it is obvious that *someone*<br>
>> wants to get rid of either phone numbers or email addresses in the contact<br>
>> data for various assigned resources, and that answers to this carefully<br>
>> crafted (and methodologically bogus) questionare are going to be used as<br>
>> a lame excuse to do that.<br>
<br>
Clearly if there had been a desire to *maintain* *both* email addresses<br>
*and* phone numbers (often useful for out-of-band communications) then<br>
this survey question should *not* have asked the participant to rate<br>
one over the other. THEY ARE BOTH ESSENTIAL AND BOTH MUST BE PRESERVED.<br>
<br>
The very fact that so many of the survey questions were formulated in this<br>
same fashion... where the question itself seems to imply some foregone<br>
conclusion about stuff that will in future be *deleted* from WHOIS...<br>
makes the motives and intentions of this entire survey enterprise and<br>
the people who formulated it suspect.<br>
<br>
Yes, if forced to make a choice, I would prefer to be mercifully euthanized<br>
in my sleep, rather that being strangled to death or dying of some<br>
horrible disease. But my first choice... just continuing to live and<br>
be well... doesn't even seem to be offered on the menu of choices in this<br>
survey! Nor does the option of just leaving well enough alone when it<br>
comes to the data that is currently present, and that has historically been<br>
present, within the RIPE WHOIS data base.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
rfg<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
P.S. The old saying is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." What problem,<br>
specifically were the people who designed this survey trying to solve?<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>