<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hello Denis,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A new NWI sounds reasonable.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Working towards a solution that can then be implemented fairly quickly in</div><div class="">IRRd and the RIPE database is great, because it’ll allow us to reach fairly</div><div class="">wide adoption on a relatively short timescale.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can’t make the proposed call, but I’ll wait to see what comes out of that</div><div class="">first - as the person who implemented NRTMv3 in IRRd and will be writing</div><div class="">on IRRd’s NRTMv4 implementation, I do have opinions :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Sasha</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 30 Oct 2020, at 08:36, Stavros Konstantaras via db-wg <<a href="mailto:db-wg@ripe.net" class="">db-wg@ripe.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Dennis, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree to close NWI-9 and proceed with opening of NWI-12 in order to explore ways</div><div class="">to modernise the NRTM service. With that said, please consider my interest also for</div><div class="">NWI-12. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""> <div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Best regards,<br class=""><br class="">Stavros Konstantaras | Sr. Network Engineer | AMS-IX <br class="">M +31 (0) 620 89 51 04 | T +31 20 305 8999<br class=""><a href="http://ams-ix.net/" class="">ams-ix.net</a></div> </div> <div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 Oct 2020, at 18:30, denis walker <<a href="mailto:ripedenis@gmail.com" class="">ripedenis@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">Hi Job<br class=""><br class="">I would agree that NWI-9 is finished, according to the way it is<br class="">worded. I would suggest we create NWI-12 to move forward with a new<br class="">version of NRTM. Perhaps you could write the first draft of the<br class="">problem statement?<br class=""><br class="">cheers<br class="">denis<br class="">co-chair DB-WG<br class=""><br class="">On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 18:09, Job Snijders <<a href="mailto:job@ntt.net" class="">job@ntt.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Dear group,<br class=""><br class="">I think NWI-9 needs to be reworded, it in part has been over taken by<br class="">current events. Rereading <a href="https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2019-April/006236.html" class="">https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2019-April/006236.html</a><br class="">what is described there actually already has completed.<br class=""><br class="">RIPE NCC's NRTM servers are open to the public (this was not the case in<br class="">april 2019 yet). The NRTM servers can be used to *subscribe* to changes<br class="">in the RIPE database. When the NRTM client remains connected, it will<br class="">receive NRTM updates as they come in. THIS IS IN-BAND, AND FAST. The<br class="">rate of object change is very low compared to most information systems.<br class=""><br class="">Looking at <a href="https://ripe79.ripe.net/presentations/118-NWI-9_S.Konstantaras_DB-WG.pdf" class="">https://ripe79.ripe.net/presentations/118-NWI-9_S.Konstantaras_DB-WG.pdf</a><br class="">it is not clear to me what the problem definition is and how it relates<br class="">to the wording of NWI-9. The proposed optimisations are either not in<br class="">the RIPE IRR -> Cache layer (as NRTM is really near-real-time when<br class="">implemented correctly) but elsewhere in the end-to-end route server<br class="">functionality. From this perspective NWI-9 has already been completed!<br class=""><br class="">Now, there is plenty to be left desired about NRTM v3. Even though it is<br class="">both a push and pull protocol and very fast (the push can measured in<br class="">single digit seconds), NRTM v3 clearly is an ancient protocol and the<br class="">operational community would benefit from a re-design of NRTM.<br class=""><br class="">WORK IS UNDER WAY: LACNIC has committed funding for IRRd's NRTM v4<br class="">implementation. RIPE NCC's 'good for the Internet' community fund has<br class="">also been requested. That decision is still pending with the committee<br class="">operating that fund.<br class=""><br class="">So what we have so far:<br class=""><br class=""> - A collective desire to replace NRTM v3 with something else<br class=""> - The *only* two IRR server code bases of this industry have<br class=""> (partial) funding to make changes possible: IRRd and RIPE WHOIS server<br class=""> - A standardisation forum to publish the new spec: IETF<br class=""> - Multiple forums for input: RIPE DB-WG, IETF, *NOG, IRC, etc<br class=""><br class="">If NWI-9 is kept open I would request it is reworded to the extend that<br class="">this working group requests RIPE NCC to commit to help design,<br class="">implement, test & adhere to what will become "NRTM v4".<br class=""><br class="">I read Stavros' presentation where the above plan is listed as<br class="">'Langzaam' :-) but the characterization may be a little bit off: there<br class="">is no Legal aspect to deal with: RIPE NCC made NRTM freely,<br class="">contract-less, publicly and in real-time available already. Also keep in<br class="">mind that any new protocol will indeed need to be tested (even if<br class="">general purpose components such as JSON, HTTPS and WebSockets are<br class="">used!).<br class=""><br class="">NRTM v4's design will have nothing to do with how NRTM v3 looks and<br class="">feels. NRTM v4 will be HTTPS based, I guarantee it! This project has<br class="">'NRTM v4' as name to make it clear to the IRR operational community<br class="">where in the internet-stack this protocol belongs, but that it is an<br class="">improvement over version 3.<br class=""><br class="">NRTM v4 can easily be something that is finished and deployed in 2021.<br class="">What needs to be done is fairly straight-forward, and lots of existing<br class="">tools can be used to make the job easier (like HTTPS and JSON).<br class=""><br class="">Kind regards,<br class=""><br class="">Job<br class=""><br class="">On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 05:22:10PM +0100, denis walker via db-wg wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi Stavros<br class=""><br class="">Thanks for the comment. I have let Ed know about your interest.<br class=""><br class="">cheers<br class="">denis<br class="">co-chair DB-WG<br class=""><br class="">On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 17:11, Stavros Konstantaras via db-wg<br class=""><<a href="mailto:db-wg@ripe.net" class="">db-wg@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Hi WG chairs,<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">I would like to declare that from our side we are still interested to team up with Ed and RIPE NCC colleagues to continue the work on NWI-9 item<br class="">in order to modernise the NRTM service with something better and more suitable for our current needs.<br class=""><br class="">As far as I can recall, Ed and his team have several ideas to proceed forward with this subject, so I believe that we would be able to draw a clear development plan.<br class="">And as a kind reminder, not only us (AMS-IX) but the European IXP community has expressed interest on proceeding with that subject.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Thank you and we are looking forward to discuss further steps on the subject.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Best regards,<br class=""><br class="">Stavros Konstantaras | Sr. Network Engineer | AMS-IX<br class="">M +31 (0) 620 89 51 04 | T +31 20 305 8999<br class=""><a href="http://ams-ix.net/" class="">ams-ix.net</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>