<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374496"><span></span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374500" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374499" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374498" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374497" dir="ltr"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374523" face="Arial" size="2"> <br>----- Forwarded Message -----<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> denis walker <dw100uk@yahoo.co.uk><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Havard Eidnes <he@uninett.no> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "db-wg@ripe.net" <db-wg@ripe.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 20 April 2017, 0:51<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: NWI-7 proposal for fixing "abuse-c:" problems<br> </font> </div> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374509" class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv2285267698"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374508"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_374507" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357765">Hi Havard</div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357821"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357766">Thanks for the response. Let me make a few points here. Firstly I am not trying to justify why such information is required. I asked the question (twice) 'if' this information is required and I got one reply. I am still hoping more people will comment so we can decide if this is required.</div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357854"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357998">I put forward this proposal on the assumption that more details are required, based on past discussions, but this may not be the case.</div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357925"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357926">Adding "abuse-c:" to resource objects will solve the technical problems in the problem statement. But if that is the solution that we end up adopting then the RIPE NCC MUST provide the tools necessary to manage this hierarchically structured information. After 14 years of working inside this database, analysing what people do with it, 'just' adding "abuse-c:" to resource objects will create a mess within a few years. This is why we created "abuse-c:" in the first place.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357987"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357997">As you point out the resource holder is ultimately responsible for abuse related to their resources. But many consumers of this abuse contact information don't understand the resource hierarchy or the contractual relationships between the parties. So if we only provide consumers with a single abuse email address and they get no response, they hit a brick wall. This is why I asked the question above. To solve the technical questions we need to know what information consumers need and how best to provide it.<br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357767"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_358176"><span>cheers</span></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_358177"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_358178"><span>denis</span></div><div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_358179"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_358180"><span>co-chair DB-WG</span></div><div class="yiv2285267698qtdSeparateBR" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357768"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2285267698yqt5447596769" id="yiv2285267698yqt88137"><div class="yiv2285267698yahoo_quoted" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357773" style="display:block;"> <div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357772" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357771" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357802"> <font id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357822" face="Arial" size="2"> </font><hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Havard Eidnes <he@uninett.no><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> db-wg@ripe.net<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 19 April 2017, 23:53<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: NWI-7 proposal for fixing "abuse-c:" problems<br clear="none"> </div> <div class="yiv2285267698y_msg_container" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357770"><br clear="none"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2285267698yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492103161136_357776">Hmm,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'm not entirely happy with this proposal. In brief, I think it<br clear="none">overcomplicates matters.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">It seems to me that this proposal may give rise to creation of<br clear="none">"pseudo-organizations" in the RIPE database. I think this will dilute<br clear="none">the value of the organization objects, since you can no longer in a<br clear="none">reasonable way expect that an organization object in the RIPE database<br clear="none">represents a real genuine real-world organization.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I agree it's a good idea to provide the default value of the abuse<br clear="none">handler via the organization object. What I don't understand is the<br clear="none">apparent reluctance to permit per-resource simple overrides of this<br clear="none">inheritance, something which could be done by allowing the marking of<br clear="none">resource objects with abuse-c pointing to a role object for the abuse<br clear="none">handler for the resource. Why insist on an indirection via an<br clear="none">organization object for this override?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So... I guess I don't understand this justification:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> If it is accepted that an email on it's own is not sufficient<br clear="none">> information [...]<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Pointing to an abuse role object via abuse-c provides more than just<div class="yiv2285267698yqt3829314205" id="yiv2285267698yqtfd45183"><br clear="none">an e-mail address.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> [...] and the clear link to the organisation with responsibility for<br clear="none">> handling abuse is also required, then this double indirection is<br clear="none">> needed.</div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Can you please expand the justification for why this information is<br clear="none">required? Isn't it just as likely that the information provided in<br clear="none">such a "must be registered" organization will just be a "pseudo-<br clear="none">organization" where the the only thing which causes it to spring into<br clear="none">existence is the insistence of the (proposed) RIPE DB data model?<br clear="none">Ultimately the responsibility for the use of the resource rests with<br clear="none">the organization holding the resource, so that's always a possible<br clear="none">recourse should the overriding abuse-c prove to produce<br clear="none">non-satisfactory results.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Best regards,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">- Håvard</div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>