[db-wg] Role of RIPE NCC in geofeed, abuse-c checks, etc

Yeah that's a good point, I guess "non-error status code" rather than
"200 status code".

-Cynthia

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 12:47 AM George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
>
> I'd say rather than a 2xx, Allowing for 30x redirection, HTTP->HTTPS
> uplift and other things. And, gzip compression. So, basically,
> completion of a data exchange.
>
> Probably in the spirit of what you meant. As long as thats what "200"
> means, I'd be fine!
>
> cheers
>
> -G
>
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 8:42 AM Cynthia Revström via db-wg
> <db-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Denis,
> >
> > I have so far not seen anyone (other than you) suggest doing anything
> > more than checking that the URL is valid and doesn't 404.
> > The people who have so far commented on this are: me, Job, George
> > Michaelson, Leo Vegoda.
> >
> > Could we consider creating an NWI with a reduced scope?
> >
> > If I start by phrasing a question like this: does any object to
> > validating the value to a valid HTTPS URL that returns a 200 status
> > code upon creation?
> >
> > If yes, is it too much validation or too little?
> >
> > -Cynthia
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 12:29 AM George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > The Geofeed: field is a URL.
> > >
> > > It points to a resource.
> > >
> > > The semantic content of the resource should not be checked, what
> > > matters is that the URL is not a 404 at the time of publication.
> > >
> > > if you want to check it isn't a 404 after that, its like Lame checks:
> > > good to do, not strictly essential in the role of Whois/RPSL.
> > >
> > > if you want to check the semantic intent of the .csv geo data, thats not db-wb.
> > >
> > > This work is important. it substantially improves the STEERAGE to find
> > > the delegates assertions about geo for their INR. This is sufficiently
> > > high value in itself its worth doing. Checking the integrity of what
> > > they say goes beyond the role of a steerage/directory function.
> > >
> > > (my opinion)
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > -G
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 8:19 AM Cynthia Revström via db-wg
> > > <db-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to clarify my stance on validation a bit more.
> > > >
> > > > I am totally against trying to validate the data itself, that is not
> > > > what the NCC is supposed to do.
> > > > Validating the format of the CSV might be okay but honestly anything
> > > > beyond validating that it is not a 404 not found is a bit too much in
> > > > my opinion.
> > > >
> > > > I also agree with Leo's points with regards to fixing the data, I
> > > > believe that the data publishers have a pretty strong incentive to
> > > > have the data be accurate.
> > > > And as Leo also mentions, the tech-c and/or admin-c contacts are also
> > > > published so finding a reporting mechanism for issues would not be
> > > > very difficult.
> > > >
> > > > And with regards to misformatted data, yeah I would probably just
> > > > ignore that entry if I was writing a parser and log the error and
> > > > report it to an engineer who can then forward it to the admin contact
> > > > if they determine it to be a real issue.
> > > >
> > > > In order to not infinitely delay this, I feel like while it shouldn't
> > > > be rushed, I am not sure how realistic this issue would be and how
> > > > much harm it would cause to anyone.
> > > >
> > > > Also, changing how much validation is done could be changed in the
> > > > future if it is shown to be an actual real world problem.
> > > >
> > > > -Cynthia
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:58 PM Leo Vegoda <leo at vegoda.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is in response to several in the discussion .
> > > > >
> > > > > In brief: I have seen network operators distraught because their
> > > > > network was misclassified as being in the wrong geography for the
> > > > > services their customers needed to access and they had no way to fix
> > > > > that situation. I feel that publishing geofeed data in the RIPE
> > > > > Database would be a good thing to do as it helps network operators
> > > > > share data in a structured way and should reduce the overall amount of
> > > > > pain from misclassified networks.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally would like to see an agreement on your draft problem
> > > > > statement and some feedback from the RIPE NCC before focusing on some
> > > > > of the more detailed questions you raised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also agree with you that accurate and reliable data is important. But...
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:19 AM denis walker via db-wg <db-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > > You say most consumers of this geofeed data
> > > > > > will be software capable of validating the csv file. What will this
> > > > > > software do when it finds invalid data? Just ignore it? Will this
> > > > > > software know who to report data errors to? Will it have any means to
> > > > > > follow up on reported errors?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would have thought that anyone implementing a parser for this data
> > > > > would also be able to query the database for a tech-c and report
> > > > > validation failures. Based on my previous interactions with the
> > > > > network operators who have suffered misclassification, I am confident
> > > > > that there is a strong incentive for networks to publish well
> > > > > formatted accurate data and to fix any errors quickly.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, there are many possible ways to reduce the risk of badly
> > > > > formatted data. For instance, the RIPE NCC could offer a tool to
> > > > > create the relevant files to be published through the LIR Portal or as
> > > > > a standalone tool. This is why I'd like to see feedback from the RIPE
> > > > > NCC ahead of an implementation discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Services like geofeed are good ideas. But if the data quality or
> > > > > > accessibility deteriorates over time it becomes useless to misleading.
> > > > > > That is why I believe centralised validating, testing and reporting
> > > > > > are helpful. I think the RIRs are well positioned for doing these
> > > > > > tasks and should do more of them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with you that defining what data means and keeping it accurate
> > > > > is important. But in the case of geo data, could the RIPE NCC validate
> > > > > the content as well as the data structures? I'd have thought that the
> > > > > publishers and the users of the data would be in the best position to
> > > > > do that. Am I wrong?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leo
> > > >
> >