[db-wg] Proposal to remove "referral-by" attribute in "mntner" object or make it optional

Hi everyone,

I agree with the deprecation of 'referral-by:' and it's removal from the 
RIPE Database.

Kind regards,
Elvis

On 16/03/14 20:10, Denis Walker wrote:
> Dear Job and Martin
>
> I am sure this point was also raised by Engin at a RIPE Meeting. But 
> there was no reaction either for or against. The RIPE NCC has proposed 
> a number of such cleanups in the RIPE Database syntax, business rules 
> and data over the years. But unless we get a stamp of approval we 
> cannot move forward with them.
>
> A quick history of the "referral-by:". When version 3 of the RIPE 
> Database software was released in 2001 it was not possible for users 
> to create their own MNTNER objects. You had to contact ripe-dbm and 
> ask for one and justify why you needed 'another' MNTNER object. So 
> only the RIPE NCC created MNTNER objects. That is why the 
> documentation said the value of "referral-by:" had to be set to 
> 'ripe-dbm-mnt' and could not be changed. In general RFC2725 defined it 
> as a chain of trust where any existing MNTNER could create another one 
> and be referred from it.
>
> At some point the community decided asking ripe-dbm to create new 
> MNTNER objects was over bureaucratic and not necessary. So it was 
> opened up to allow anyone to create a MNTNER object, without any 
> verification, validation or accountability. This is the situation we 
> have now where a MNTNER is an anonymous box holding credentials of 
> unknown and un-identifiable people. These are the people who maintain 
> data in the RIPE Database. There was a cost to removing the bureaucracy.
>
> As Engin pointed out, there was never any functionality implemented 
> based on the "referral-by:" attribute. When we allowed anyone to 
> create their own MNTNER we dropped the restriction on the value and 
> changes to the value. The recommendation was to make it 
> self-referencing. This was the easiest way to explain to new users 
> what to put for the value. But it still confuses users today and if 
> the community agrees it would be a good move to deprecate it, this 
> would help a lot of people to understand the database.
>
> When we set up AFRINIC's database in 2005, we dropped the 
> "referral-by:" in their implementation of the whois software.
>
> As there is no usage or dependency on this attribute at all, we can 
> deprecate it from the syntax and mass update all MNTNER objects to 
> remove it very easily.
>
> If you wish to consider updating RFC2725 and RFC2622 (and later 
> versions) bear in mind this is not the only deviation from the RFCs in 
> the RIPE Database implementation. In fact from the start in 2001, the 
> RIPE Database software was never strictly compliant with the RFCs. We 
> used to say it conformed to RIPE RPSL, which was derived from the 
> RFCs. To bring the RFCs into line with practical reality would be 
> quite a task. Especially as the RIPE Database is a routing, reverse 
> delegation and Internet number registry. 'RPSL' was adapted to make it 
> work for all elements of the database.
>
> I hope this explains where we are with "referral-by:". If you wish to 
> proceed with changing this, you may wish to take another look at some 
> of the other changes we suggested over the years that also never 
> achieved any consensus. Some of those suggestions are still applicable 
> now and would help to simplify aspects of the database and it's usage.
>
> Regards
> Denis Walker
> Business Analyst
> RIPE NCC Database Team
>
> On 14/03/2014 18:14, Job Snijders wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 06:19:14PM +0200, Martin Tõnusoo wrote:
>>
>>> "referral-by" attribute(defined in RFC2725) is mandatory in "mntner"
>>> object:
>>>
>>> [martint@ ~/ripe-db]$ whois -BHrh whois.ripe.net -t mntner | grep
>>> referral-by referral-by:    [mandatory]  [single]     [ ] [martint@
>>> ~/ripe-db]$
>>>
>>> I checked the db-wg mailing-list archive since January 2000 and only
>>> discussion I found regarding this attribute was from Engin
>>> Gunduz(former RIPE NCC Senior Software Engineer) in June 2004: <snip>
>>>
>>> He also proposed to remove the "referral-by" attribute, but there was
>>> no feedback to his e-mail. One can read his e-mail here:
>>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2004-June/002797.html In
>>> addition, while RIPE database manual says that "referral-by attribute
>>> may never be altered after the addition of the maintainer", one can
>>> easily change it at least in current RIPE database version.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the "referral-by" attribute obsolete? Or is it needed in some
>>> specific situation? If not, I propose to remove the "referral-by"
>>> attribute in "mntner" object or at least make it optional.
>> What is to be gained by removing this attribute (or making it optional)?
>>
>> Currently the attribute is is quite prevalent in the existing database,
>> so outright deletion is out of the question in my honest opinion:
>>
>> princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$ grep -c referral-by ripe.db
>> 46753
>> princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$
>>
>> Maybe one of the RIPE database administrators can comment on current
>> "referral-by" usage? What has changed between 2004 and 2014?
>>
>> How are other RIRs using the attribute? If RIPE is to deprecate the
>> attribute, it might be worth writing a small Internet-Draft to update
>> RFC 2725.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Job
>
>