Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects

----- Forwarded by Henning Brauer/BSWS/DE on 30.06.00 13:16 -----
                                                                                                                                 
                    Henning Brauer                                                                                               
                                         To:     "Sabine Dolderer/Denic" <dolderer at denic.de>                                     
                    30.06.00 13:14       cc:                                                                                     
                                         Subject:     Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects       
                                         (Document link: Henning Brauer)                                                         
                                                                                                                                 



a) agree. But the Maintainer-Scheme works really good, so I do nao see any
reason for changing this.
b) Just one Example (now):
bss004:~ # whois -h whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE
Connection refused; server has reached maximum number of clients.
Anonther: dns.denic.de didn't answered authoritative for de-Domains
Yesterday evening...
c) No One would sya anything if you would just take the ripe-solution so we
had to change email-adress for updates. Even other changes, like source:
and perhaps phone, fax and so in beeing optional, would be acceptable. But
there is no doc how updates will be made!
d) customers do agree to this when putting ther data in the DB. As I said
before: Just make phone and fax optional, everbody will agree. If it would
be true what you are saying here, even Telephone books would be illegal.
e) just compare whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE with whois -h
whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE. I'd like to show you this here, but DENIC's
whois-Server is not reponding. The problem is that if you di an whois-query
for an .de-Domain (in most cases using one of the web-interface) you'll see
the crippeled data from ther denic whois-db.
f) means there will be costs? You do not answer the question here.
g) answer?

Thanks for participationg this discussion.
But why was this discussion not possible before doing the move?? As said
before: RIPE-Meetings and hostmaster-list ARE closed communities, the
db-wg at ripe.net would have been the right place.

Greetings

Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS


------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany

info at bsmail.de
www.bsws.de

fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5

PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE


                                                                                                                                
                    "Sabine                                                                                                     
                    Dolderer/Deni        To:     henning.brauer at bsmail.de                                                       
                    c"                   cc:     db-wg at ripe.net, info at denic.de, lir-wg at ripe.net, robert at martin-legene.dk        
                    <dolderer at den        Subject:     Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects          
                    ic.de>                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
                    30.06.00                                                                                                    
                    12:44                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                




Hello,

On 30.06.00 11:07 henning.brauer at bsmail.de wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> thats not really the point of our critics.
> a) changes only be made by members????

as every DE-domainowner is our customer and we are responisble to him
about the security of his domainname we must assure that changes are made
in a verifyable and accountable way. It is important that there is a
documented responsibility.

> b) technical solution - RIPE's solutions are working really good,
DENIC's
> past solutions are poor

no comment.

> c) change in interfaces not acceptable

changes in interfaces are sometimes necessary. But I am with you that this
should happen very rarely and should be prepared very well and people
should be informed very soon -- but we tried to make all this.

> d) contact info's, especially phone and fax, are REALLY important for
the
> hostmasters to inform each other about technical probs. If this could be
> against German's laws, just make these fields optional.

we are only allowed to publish these things if the custoumer have signed
that he allows the publishing. Currently we think that from nearly none of
the persons in the RIPE-DB this allowence is there. For the future we plan
to let the people the choice to publish these data.

> e) putting so named "non-operational data" or "test data" which is
> incomplete and partly incorrect in production systems (it IS in
> productionis - just do an whoi-query...) is not acceptable

sorry I don't understand these point. Maybe you can show me an example of
these "test data".

> f) plans making life for non-members harder -> DENIC tries to get more
> payin' members????

As we are working on a costrecovery base (non-profit) more members don't
means automatically more income. But surely are we are interested in
organisations taking the responsibitlity and sharing the risk to run the
German Registry as a self regulating body for the benefits of the German
Internet Community.

> g) plans to charge for person: and role: records?
> h) to be continued...

Regards Sabine

>
> pls see http://denicpetition.bsws.de
>
> Greetings from Germany
>
> Henning Brauer
> Hostmaster BSWS
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> BS Web Services
> Roedingsmarkt 14
> 20459 Hamburg
> Germany
>
> info at bsmail.de
> www.bsws.de
>
> fon: +49 40 3750357-0
> fax: +49 40 3750357-5
>
> PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
>
>
>
>                     "Sabine
>                     Dolderer/Deni        To: henning.brauer at bsmail.de
>                     c"                   cc:     db-wg at ripe.net,
info at denic.de,
> lir-wg at ripe.net, robert at martin-legene.dk
>                     <dolderer at den        Subject:     Antwort: Re: AW:
AW:
> Deletion of .de domain objects
>                     ic.de>
>
>                     30.06.00
>                     10:39
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we
> have (or even must) done the migration.
>
> First of all I want to try to summarize the problems we are faced in the
> past and then I will come to an explanation of the solution we choose.
>
> Problems:
>
> There were a lot of discussions in the past about domain-objects in the
> RIPE-database and that they cause too much capacity for RIPE to maintain
> their database for this amount of objects.
>
> There was a common understanding that RIPE is not a service provider for
> domainregistries like ccTLDs but there were indeed suggestions to offer
or
> assist us in this kind of service.
>
> There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to
> our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of
their
> customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection
> laws. Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the
publishing
> of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized.
>
> We have had also a lot of discussions about the issue with other ccTLDs
> and with people from the EU commission. The fundamental outcome of these
> discussion was that there is no real issue to export personal data from
> the coutries to acentral database and that this should therefore stopped
> very soon. If the data is stored locally everybody can impose
individually
> there dataprotection laws. Nevertheless there should be a central
> entrypoint to look for domain-data and therefore we support the RIPE
> referal mechanism and are looking together with other ccTLDs and the
db-wg
> from RIPE at solutions like using the SRV-RR for whois-queries (see
> rfc2782 for a documentation)
>
> Solution
>
> So as I pointed out above there was no other solution than to migrate
the
> domainobjects to a DENIC based domainquery mechanism. People who
followed
> the discussion know that DENIC is on there way out of RIPE. Actually it
> was a dicission made by the RIPE db-wg in Amsterdam (February?) that
there
> should be no domainobject in the database after June 30th.
>
> Why do we publish less data than RIPE does?
>
> I have tried to explain it also above due to German dataprotection laws
we
> are allowed to publish only "necessary data" without formal agreement
with
> the applicant.
>
> Whats necessary concerning a domainname?
>
> We agreed with the people from the dataprotection office that there is
no
> necessity to no more about a admin-c of the domain than his address
> because if you need for legal issues to come in contact with him thats
the
> only thing you need.
>
> Concerning the tech-c and the zone-c  he finally agreed that there is a
> necessity due to technical urgencies to publish phone and
email-addresses
> and so we will implement this very soon.
>
> I hope I have help you a little bit in understanding our position. I am
> really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling that people
> felt we are doing things without thinking or good reasons or just to
make
> them angry. I hope you see there are - as usual - two sides of a medal
and
> you see know the other side a little bit better,
>
> Regards Sabine
>
>
> On 30.06.00 09:39 henning.brauer at bsmail.de wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry for that, received a mail in german and replied....
> > once again in english:
> >
> > I'd like to see a common procedure against the behaviour od DENIC.
> > There are lot's of problems with the DENIC's solution, and if you
think
> on
> > the past working of DENIC, you would really wish that there are no
> domain
> > or person or role-objects in a database controlled by them....
> > The current solution by RIPE (for the Handles) works great. Most of us
> > developed tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on to deal with the
> > procedure of creating, updating and deleting RIPE-Handles. All of us
> could
> > live with a change of the email-adress to send the requests to, but
not
> > with totally new formats and and totally different concepts. It would
be
> a
> > good idea for DENIC to take the (really great working) RIPE-solution.
> > The manner aof DENICs working now is inacceptable. Anybody making
> > whois-querys with one of the uncountable webinterfaces gets the
cripled
> > contact data displayed. How the not with blindness strucked of us have
> > seen, there is lots of data missing in the persons:s and role:s-data:
> > remarks, mnt-by, phone, fax, trouble, notify, changed and (for the
> role:s)
> > admin-c and tech-c. On Example: in our role-handle (compare whois -h
> > whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE  against whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE)
> is
> > described how to make updates and who to cantact for whatever. This
info
> is
> > now missing. Remember: this (in DENICs words "non-operational data" or
> > "just a test") criple data is displayed whenever you query a german
> domain!
> > The most people won't hav the idea to query whois.denic.de for the
> domain
> > and then whois.ripe.net for the person:s and role:s, and I'm sure that
> even
> > no webinterface to whois does so. This means tons of senseless work
for
> us!
> > It is really inacceptable insolence by DENIC to take data out of the
> > RIPE-Database, changing it and then publishing it! With RIPE this is
> > inconceivablily, have a look at their policy. I'm not sure if this is
> not
> > against german or europeen laws, but I'm not a lawyer. If I think of
the
> > future, all domain:s, person:s and role:s at DENICs database... beam
me
> > back a few years, please.
> > Putting the domain:s in DENICs own database is acceptable. There is no
> > really change for us (ok, I had to add two exra lines to our
> > whois-webinterface's code...), because we register Domains through
DENIC
> or
> > resellers (most of us are not members of DENIC because this is really
> > expensive, so we are depend on  resellers). With person:s and
> > role:s-objects, surely all of us are working directly with the
> > RIPE-Database. It is inacccetable if changes will only be possible by
> > DENIC's members. This means weeks or eve months of handwork for us.
Then
> > the resellers will complete their (mail-)interfaces for changing , and
> > parallel tio doing lots of work by hand we have to completely
redevelop
> our
> > tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on!!!
> >
> > This can not be the way to our future.
> >
> > Let's join to make DENIC know that this is inacceptable. Contact your
> DENIC
> > reseller and tell them what you think about this. They control DENICs
> > board...
> >
> > Greetings from Germany
> >
> > Henning Brauer
> > Hostmaster BSWS
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > BS Web Services
> > Roedingsmarkt 14
> > 20459 Hamburg
> > Germany
> >
> > info at bsmail.de
> > www.bsws.de
> >
> > fon: +49 40 3750357-0
> > fax: +49 40 3750357-5
> >
> > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
> >
> >
> >
> >                     Robert
> >                     Martin-Legène          To:
henning.brauer at bsmail.de
> >                     <robert at martin-        cc:
> >                     legene.dk>             Subject:     Re: AW: AW:
> Deletion
> of
> > .de domain objects
> >                     Sent by:
> >                     r at jenslyn.nisse
> >                     .dk
> >
> >
> >                     30.06.00 05:49
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hallo.
> >
> > This is a list in English.
> >
> > What did you write?
> >
> > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer at bsmail.de wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich
sehr
> > sehr
> > > gerne.
> > > Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so
an
> die
> > > Bearbeitungszeiten denke...
> > > Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten
> von
> > uns
> > > haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu
> > > Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage
> > > DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen
Formaten
> > und
> > > Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann
DENIC)-Handles
> > > nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen.
> > > Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich
> > unverantwortlich.
> > > Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für
> whois
> > > macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die
DENIC-(test?
> > > -)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar
> > > beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu
> > > kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder
> > alle,
> > > zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen
> > > unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung
> der
> > > Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist
> eine
> > > bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar
> > > ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige
> > Arbeitsweise
> > > des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das
alle
> > > Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank
> liegen.
> > Bei
> > > den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise
für
> > uns
> > > nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder
> > deren
> > > Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle
> direct
> > > auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn
plötzlich
> > alle
> > > Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als
> > > nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind
> und
> > > eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von
> > > Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins
> > Land,
> > > und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format
rauslaufen.
> > Folge
> > > also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per
Hand
> > > bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit
sind)
> > > unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke.
> > >
> > > Gruss
> > >
> > > Henning Brauer
> > > Hostmaster BSWS
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > BS Web Services
> > > Roedingsmarkt 14
> > > 20459 Hamburg
> > > Germany
> > >
> > > info at bsmail.de
> > > www.bsws.de
> > >
> > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0
> > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5
> > >
> > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                     "NCC Network
> > >                     Coordination         To:
> > <henning.brauer at bsmail.de>
> > >                     Center"              cc:
<owner-loca-ir at ripe.net>
> > >                     <ncc at mediasca        Subject:     AW: AW:
Deletion
> of
> > .de domain objects
> > >                     pe.de>
> > >
> > >                     29.06.00
> > >                     18:04
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC?
> > > Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon,
> > > das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC
> Maintainerlose
> > > Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen.
> > > Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja,
> wie
> > > unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer.
> > > Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au
> > weia.
> > > In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass
> > > wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen
> > > vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig.
> > >
> > > MfG
> > > Martin Ahrens
> > >
> > > Mediascape Hostmasters
> > >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: henning.brauer at bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer at bsmail.de]
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40
> > > An: NCC Network Coordination Center
> > > Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kann ich nur hoffen.
> > > Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon
> bemerkt
> > > haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser
anderer
> > Kram.
> > >
> > > Gruss
> > >
> > > Henning Brauer
> > > Hostmaster BSWS
> > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > BS Web Services
> > > Roedingsmarkt 14
> > > 20459 Hamburg
> > > Germany
> > >
> > > info at bsmail.de
> > > www.bsws.de
> > >
> > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0
> > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5
> > >
> > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                     "NCC Network
> > >                     Coordination         To:
> > <henning.brauer at bsmail.de>
> > >                     Center"              cc:
> > >                     <ncc at mediasca        Subject:     AW: Deletion
of
> .de
> > > domain objects
> > >                     pe.de>
> > >
> > >                     29.06.00
> > >                     16:00
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hallo,
> > >
> > > was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat
> Daten
> > > aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form
> > > übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit
> > >
> > > changed:    test at nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD
> > >
> > > versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der
> > > Übernahme?
> > >
> > > MfG
> > > Martin Ahrens
> > >
> > > Mediascape Hostmasters
> > >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: owner-local-ir at ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir at ripe.net]Im
> Auftrag
> > > von henning.brauer at bsmail.de
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23
> > > An: lir-wg at ripe.net; db-wg at ripe.net; local-ir at ripe.net
> > > Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and
> > roles
> > > had also "DENIC" as source.
> > > But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s????
> > > try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de
> > > NOC54-RIPE.
> > >
> > > Greetings from Germany
> > >
> > > Henning Brauer
> > > Hostmaster BSWS
> > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > BS Web Services
> > > Roedingsmarkt 14
> > > 20459 Hamburg
> > > Germany
> > >
> > > info at bsmail.de
> > > www.bsws.de
> > >
> > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0
> > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5
> > >
> > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                     RIPE Database
> > >                     Administratio        To:     lir-wg at ripe.net,
> > > db-wg at ripe.net, local-ir at ripe.net
> > >                     n                    cc:
> > >                     <ripe-dbm at rip        Subject:     Deletion of
.de
> > > domain
> > > objects
> > >                     e.net>
> > >                     Sent by:
> > >                     owner-lir-wg@
> > >                     ripe.net
> > >
> > >
> > >                     29.06.00
> > >                     12:45
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------
> > > Dear Colleauges,
> > >
> > >  We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed
> > > the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects
> > > to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects
> > > in RIPE whois database except for the top level one.
> > >
> > >  Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am,
Central
> > > European Summer Time.
> > >
> > > If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm at ripe.net.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Filippo Portera
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Robert Martin-Legene
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Sabine  Dolderer
> DENIC eG
> Wiesenhüttenplatz 26
> D-60329 Frankfurt
>
> eMail: Sabine.Dolderer at denic.de
> Fon: +49 69 27235 0
> Fax: +49 69 27235 235
>
>
>
>
Sabine  Dolderer
DENIC eG
Wiesenhüttenplatz 26
D-60329 Frankfurt

eMail: Sabine.Dolderer at denic.de
Fon: +49 69 27235 0
Fax: +49 69 27235 235