<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 20 mar 2014, at 22:18, Meredith Whittaker <<a href="mailto:meredithrachel@google.com">meredithrachel@google.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family: LucidaSans-Typewriter; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div dir="ltr">Your take is really interesting, Patrik, and exactly the kind of knowledge I think RIPE and the broader technical community could inject into these processes. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>It has been injected, repeatedly, but the level of clue among the ones actually writing the text is too low. And too many lobbyists want this bad vague language.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family: LucidaSans-Typewriter; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div dir="ltr"><div>Would it make sense to do a quick write-up, explaining the technical difficulties/impossibilities of implementing what is currently (vaguely) defined in the draft, and requesting clarity and technical specifics? </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Unknown to me. I do not know where the text is at the moment.</div><div><br></div><div> Patrik</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family: LucidaSans-Typewriter; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div dir="ltr"><div>On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Patrik Fältström <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paf@frobbit.se" target="_blank">paf@frobbit.se</a>></span> wrote:</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">Agree, but that VPN can not be delivered (over the same IP based<br>network) as internet access without the internet access being degraded.<br>That is what I read the text say. And my point is that what this results<br>in is that the customer of the internet access should continue to get<br>whatever service they bought, irrespectively if some VPN service or<br>whatever is transported in the same shared physical medium, L2 or L3<br>network.<br><br>If that is what the intention is, why do they not write that?<br><br> Patrik<br><div class=""><br>On 2014-03-20 00:30, Innocenzo Genna wrote:<br>> In my opinion, that kind of specialized services are a VPN. It’s no<br>> Internet.<br>><br>> -----------------------------------------<br>> Innocenzo Genna<br></div>> *Genna Cabinet Sprl *<br><div class="">> 1050 Bruxelles - Belgium<br>><br>> Skype: innonews<br>> Twitter:@InnoGenna<br></div>> Email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:inno@innogenna.it">inno@innogenna.it</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:inno@innogenna.it">inno@innogenna.it</a>><br><div class="">><br>> my blog:<a href="http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/</a><br>> <<a href="http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/</a>><br></div>> my music:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.innocenzogenna.com/" target="_blank">www.innocenzogenna.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="http://www.innocenzogenna.com/" target="_blank">http://www.innocenzogenna.com</a>><br><div class="">><br>><br>><br>> Il giorno 20/mar/2014, alle ore 00:03, Patrik Fältström <<a href="mailto:paf@frobbit.se">paf@frobbit.se</a><br></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:paf@frobbit.se">paf@frobbit.se</a>>> ha scritto:<br><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">><br>>><br>>><br>>> On 2014-03-19 20:13, Gordon Lennox wrote:<br>>>> On 19 Mar, 2014, at 18:34, Innocenzo Genna <<a href="mailto:inno@innogenna.it">inno@innogenna.it</a><br>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:inno@innogenna.it">inno@innogenna.it</a>><br>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:inno@innogenna.it">inno@innogenna.it</a>>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>>> 15) “specialized service” means an electronic communications<br>>>>> service */optimized for /*specific content, applications or services,<br>>>>> or a combination thereof, */provided over logically distinct capacity<br>>>>> and relying on strict admission control from end to end/*. It is not<br>>>>> marketed or */usable/* as a substitute for internet access service;<br>>>>> [its application layer is not functionally identical to services and<br>>>>> applications available over the public internet access service;]<br>>>><br>>>> And that, particularly if the specialised service uses IP, is the<br>>>> problem?<br>>>><br>>>> And end-to-end means to a particular device or, more probably, an end<br>>>> network controlled by the service supplier.<br>>>><br>>>> I stopped liking "end-to-end" sometime back.<br>>>><br>>><br>>> I have no idea what and how to implement technically what they talk<br>>> about as "specialices service that does not impcat...".<br>>><br>>> In a packet based network, if the outgoing interface is not full, all<br>>> packets will be forwarded as soon as possible.<br>>><br>>> If the outgoing interface is full, then one can either queue all packets<br>>> equally (M/M/1 queuing theory) or one can have multiple queues (M/M/N).<br>>> If one have a specialized service that have some special treatment, then<br>>> by definition that implies longer delay on other queues (as packets get<br>>> reordered).<br>>><br>>> Now, there are some special cases as well where the _services_ sold can<br>>> be different (i.e. some business connection with some SLA that is higher<br>>> than some SLA for end users paying less).<br>>><br>>> What I think is sad is that they did not stop at saying for example:<br>>><br>>> - Each provider of a service is required to always deliver to their<br>>> customers the service they have promised to deliver. (Regardless of what<br>>> other services they deliver to other customers on the same network...)<br>>><br>>> Not any silly end-to-end. No silly "specialized service" etc.<br>>><br>>> Then in other paragraphs they already (if I remember correctly) have<br>>> wording about equal treatment, dominant provider of services etc.<br>>><br>>> Patrik<br>>><br>><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><div><br></div>Meredith Whittaker<br>Program Manager, Google Research<div>Google NYC</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>