[cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs

Hi Shane, all, 

I’m reiterating what I said at the beginning of this thread, but I would like to respond to the characterisation of this event as a "secret meeting”. 

The RIPE NCC understands the importance that our membership and community place on transparency. Our efforts in relation to this particular event included:
	- Notifying the community that the engagement had taken place (via this list)
	- Providing the meeting agenda
	- Providing links to the material presented by RIPE NCC staff at the event

The latter two are available here: 
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/lea-meetings/ripe-ncc-lea-meeting-31-january-2018

This information is provided specifically so that our membership and community can understand the reason for the meeting, the topics under discussion and the position conveyed by the RIPE NCC in those discussions. 

In this case, the event was organised in cooperation with the Ministry of Telecom and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation (a practical outcome of the agreement signed between the Ministry and the RIPE NCC in 2017). The Ministry invited representatives of a number of Russian law enforcement agencies, but the RIPE NCC did not collect names of the participants. 

Best regards,
Chris

——
Chris Buckridge
External Relations Manager
RIPE NCC



> On 28 Mar 2018, at 10:58, Shane Kerr <shane at time-travellers.org> wrote:
> 
> Michele,
> 
> [ Hm... I had this marked as "sent on 2018-02-21" on my mailbox, but I
>  don't see it on the mailing list archives. Re-sending a month later. ]
> 
> I was at a gathering where a member of the Dutch government explained
> the negotiations with the US regarding TTIP(*). Basically the US
> insisted that all negotiations be done in secret. The Dutch
> representatives felt like they had no choice, so agreed to this
> condition. The feeling of most of the room, including myself, was that
> the Dutch government should have said that it was impossible for us to
> conduct such non-transparent discussions and walked away.
> 
> That is my feeling here too with the RIPE NCC and LEA, which is to say
> that I basically agree with Alexander.
> 
> I realize that LEA officials may not have freedom to attend meetings
> openly for many reasons. That is a shame and I do not blame them or
> think that they necessarily have bad motives. Legal restrictions may
> exist, or simply perception problems, and these can be very real.
> 
> But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should
> strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes
> certain types of interactions impossible.
> 
> It may also be that LEA culture and governmental culture in general
> reflexively tries to do things in secret - or at least private - that do
> not need to be. Perhaps the RIPE community pushing a bit may move things
> in the right direction.
> 
> In terms of oversight and accountability, such secret meetings are also
> problematic for the RIPE NCC members. How can a member evaluate if their
> interests are being represented if they cannot even know who is being
> talked to? Alexander's concerns about discussions with bad actors seem
> justified to me.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> --
> Shane
> 
> (*)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership
> 
> Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
>> 
>> Holding meetings with LEA is a good idea in order to help them understand what we all do as well as to understand their concerns.
>> 
>> Demanding that they register etc., would make such meetings problematic.
>> 
>> So I disagree with you fundamentally.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Michele
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> http://blacknight.blog/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ 
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> On 19/02/2018, 15:08, "cooperation-wg on behalf of Alexander Isavnin" <cooperation-wg-bounces at ripe.net on behalf of isavnin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>    Chris!
>> 
>>    Seems i'v mistaken, and Openness and Transparency are no longer essencial values for RIPE NCC.
>> 
>>    No gap could be briged if LEAs stays anonymous. 
>>    Breaking openness and transparency for comfort of some doubtful officers - is really bad idea.
>> 
>>    Why i ask for LEA deanonymisation? 
>>    Read ECHR cases against Russia on tortures (and other abuses) by all kind of LEAs. It would be really pity, if later appears, that RIPE NCC have met some of such abusers.
>> 
>>    Regards, 
>>    Alexander
>> 
>>    P.S. As we say in Internet: "pics, or never happened"
>>    P.P.S. Also, "Once cop always cop", even if it tries to infiltrate into engeneering world. As we seen, successfully protecting interests of cops, rather than interests of Community.
>> 
>>    Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>