[coc-tf] Draft Minutes – CoC TF Eighteenth Call

Dear TF members,

Here are the draft minutes from our last call.

Cheers

Ant


****
*

*Draft Minutes – CoC TF Eighteenth Call*

5 November 15:00 (UTC+2)

*Attendees: *Denesh Bhabuta, Athina Fragkouli, Antony Gollan, Brian 
Nisbet, Salam Yamout

*Scribe: *Kjerstin Burdiek**

*Summary:* The CoC TF discussed the draft document prepared by Antony 
and Athina which outlined both the CoC process and the CoC Team 
formation. The TF discussed the relationship between the CoC Team and 
the WG chairs, agreeing that the CoC Team had authority over declaring 
violations, while the chairs oversaw conduct in their own MLs and WGs. 
Beyond this, it was agreed that they should not be too prescriptive; the 
two groups would need to liaise to deal with any overlaps that arose. 
Regarding the overall process, there were three parts, one concerning 
report management, one concerning issuing consequences, and one 
concerning the formation of the CoC Team. The TF discussed specific 
steps in each section and added steps where needed. The TF also 
considered how consequences would be determined and issued. They agreed 
that consequences did not necessarily have to escalate before high-level 
punishments were given and that the RIPE Chair might need to be informed 
in the case of such a serious consequence. Finally, Athina shared 
suggestions on how to protect the CoC Team from legal damages, such as 
including a waiver in the RIPE Meeting terms and conditions where 
participants consent to the CoC process. There was an action on Antony 
to revise the draft after the meeting in preparation for sharing it on 
the ML.*
*

*1. Minutes*

The minutes from the last meeting were approved, noting one correction 
Leo had sent to the list – update the introduction to reflect that the 
action for him was to create a draft and share this with him and Athina, 
which he had done.*
*

*2. Agenda*

There were no changes to the agenda.*
*

*3. Actions**
*

*- (Ongoing) TF to think about how the CoC Team and the WG Chairs would 
work together to manage discussions on mailing lists. Including tools, 
e.g. Mattermost channel*

Antony shared the document he and Athina had been working on, which was 
based on Leo’s initial draft. So far, they had focused on what sections 
were needed and how they should be ordered. Regarding this action item, 
Antony shared a section about the relationship between the WG chairs and 
the CoC Team. The draft stated that all community members were 
responsible for making people aware of appropriate conduct, but only the 
CoC Team was responsible for investigating reports and making 
determinations. WG chairs were not part of the CoC Team or its 
deliberations, but they were responsible for their WGs in a proactive way.

Salam said she did understand why they included this in the document. 
Perhaps they could say that the role of WG chair had already been 
defined elsewhere, and this document would not alter it. However, the 
CoC Team might consult with the chairs in the case of an incident on 
their ML or in their WG.

Antony asked if there might be cases where it would be better for people 
to contact the WG chair rather than the CoC Team (for example, if 
someone was spamming a ML the chair might just decide to moderate them).

Salam said if that was the case, the CoC Team could reach out to the WG 
chair to determine whether the chair would like a formal case opened or 
would handle it themselves.

Athina said that people may be uncertain about the duties of the CoC 
Team and the WG chairs. The WG chair role was indeed already defined, 
but they could clarify the scope of the CoC Team. The CoC Team could 
tell the person making a report if this was within their scope or if it 
was within the WG chair’s. There used to be separate CoCs for their 
meetings and for the mailing lists. Per the RIPE ML CoC, the WG chairs 
could issue bans and other consequences if needed. The CoC TF needed to 
clarify if WG chairs still had these abilities and if the CoC Team 
needed the WG chair’s permission to ban someone on a ML. The TF needed 
to determine which party would apply any consequences.

Denesh asked if they needed to clarify who had more authority in CoC 
breaches. There might be cases where the CoC Team did not consider a 
certain act to be a breach, but the reporter then went to the WG chair 
for a second opinion. This could become circular.

Brian said the process would be complex. There was an analogy here 
between the WG chairs and the Programme Committee, where defining their 
scope had taken a long time. They had found a reasonable model, but it 
had changed a lot from how it started. Regarding this document, they 
should say that the CoC Team and the WG Chairs must liaise where there 
is an overlap. An act might not be a breach of the CoC and yet still 
merit some kind of consequence. An example from a different event was 
when someone had worn a sword as party of their costume. This wasn’t a 
breach of the CoC but was a breach of the convention policy, which was 
the Operations Team’s responsibility. When needed, the two teams 
convened to discuss how to handle certain incidents. Similarly, spamming 
a ML might not be a CoC breach but could be handled by the WG chair 
issuing a ban. However, the CoC Team should perhaps have the power to 
overrule the WG chair on what constituted a breach, and this might be 
where you brought in the RIPE Chair Team to mediate and discuss. But 
generally, they had different areas of authority, and the WG chairs 
should want to promote the CoC. Finally, a separate document for the CoC 
Team responsibilities was not necessary because the first document had 
outlined them.

Salam agreed with Brian. The document should state what WG chair 
responsibilities were and that they should liaise with the CoC Team in 
case of an overlap.

Antony asked if they should remove this information from the document.

Brian said parts were redundant and could be removed. It was good that 
the document didn’t prevent by default someone who was a WG chair from 
being on the CoC Team. He was wondering whether there needed to be a 
formally appointed liaison or if that could be informal.

Antony asked what would happen if he misbehaved in a WG session. The WG 
chair might ask him to calm down or change his behaviour, which made 
sense as they were responsible for that WG. He asked if a CoC Team 
member would have the same authority.

Brian said it depended on whether a complaint had been made.

Antony asked if that meant the role was purely reactive.

Brian said yes. However, that person on the CoC Team might raise the 
issue, and he would hope they would discuss this with the chair. He 
thought a single CoC Team member should not be the one ordering someone 
to stop certain actions, the wider team should be involved.

Antony asked if they should make that point in this part of the document 
or leave it out.

Brian said to leave it out.

Athina said they should revisit it. During the process, they might 
decide to rethink the relationship between the WG chairs and CoC Team 
during investigations. But if the case concerned behaviour on the ML, 
the CoC Team must liaise with the WG chair.

Salam said they should not reiterate what everyone’s role was, as it 
would open up more ambiguity. If there was no complaint, the CoC Team 
would not be involved. She said they could should revisit this later.

Denesh suggested moving on and clarifying the wording later.*
*

*- (Ongoing) TF to think about the appropriate level of process to allow 
further improvements to the CoC.*

There were no comments, and this action remained ongoing.*
*

*- Leo to draft a working document for Athina and Antony to update for 
discussion at the next meeting*

Antony returned to the document and said they had restructured this from 
Leo’s initial version. There were three large sections. The first 
section outlined the process for managing reports and the steps 
involved. The second, on consequences, was inspired by the Python 
consequences ladder they had looked at on their previous call. The final 
section covered the formation of the CoC Team, from recruitment to 
dismissal. He suggested going through the document with the TF. *
*

*4. Review Draft*

Antony noted that this was still a rough draft. So far they had focused 
on what they wanted to say broadly and the overall structure.

Denesh suggested they go through each section and then could then review 
this in more detail ahead of their next call.

Antony said for the reporting section, they would mention the ways 
people could make reports. Then they would describe the ways reports 
would be received and subsequently handled. They would also cover how a 
reporter would be notified that their report was under review. On-duty 
team members would look for conflicts of interest and recuse themselves 
if needed. The Team would consist of three people, two volunteers and 
one RIPE NCC member.

Brian said he was not in favour of automated messages about reports 
being received, especially for these sorts of matters.

Antony said they could use both, first an automated response and then a 
person responding again once the report had reached them.

Brian said the first message could state that the CoC Team had received 
it, and then the Team could decide which member would handle it.

Salam asked if they should describe what an on-duty team member was, as 
the TF had not yet determined how these team members would be chosen. 
This section outlined the ticketing system, so the on-duty team member 
description could go elsewhere.

Antony asked if she thought this was too detailed.

Salam said she thought this information belonged in the third section of 
the document, which could outline how the team was formed.

Athina said she understood Salam’s point but said the section titles 
were unclear. In the section referring to the report being received, 
which described the period up to the investigation beginning, it might 
be useful to mention that people with conflicts of interest would not be 
involved in the investigation. If they did not state that, it might give 
the impression that those people would still be involved at the start of 
the investigation and only later excluded.

Antony asked if there was actually another step in the process and if 
that would constitute a new section.

Denesh agreed there was another step there – after the receipt of a report.

Salam suggested the steps were: 1) submission of a report, 2) the 
process between the report submission and the start of the 
investigation. This second step was where team formation and conflicts 
of interest would be covered.

Brian agreed that the team should be selected before the start of an 
investigation.

Antony suggested a new section for group formation. For the report 
evaluation step, there would be three people evaluating: two volunteers 
and a RIPE NCC professional to assist the volunteers.

Salam said this repeated other sections. She also asked for 
clarification on another step and whether it meant a report was 
evaluated or a decision was issued.

Athina said they needed to agree on the term used here, either 
determination, ruling, or verdict.

Brian said he liked decision or determination, as they were determining 
whether there was a breech. Verdict sounded like a judgment of the 
person rather than the breach.

Denesh said the evaluation section needed to be reworded in that case.

Antony agreed and asked if there were any other comments.

Salam asked who would be notified of the decision.

Antony said there could be a notification step, perhaps for staff.

Salam asked why this was not in step four, as it concerned enacting a 
decision.

Antony said this depended on how they split up the sections.

Salam said fewer was better.

Brian said he preferred taking action as a separate step because it was 
important and could have serious consequences. It should be highlighted.

Salam said they could have these as two sections, especially if there 
could be a process in between them, such as an appeal.

Denesh agreed that an appeals process was necessary to include and that 
there should be a separate action step.

Antony asked if the determination was completed solely by the CoC Team 
or if the RIPE Chair would also be involved.

Brian said that depended on what level of action needed to be taken. A 
minor consequence did not need to be announced, but a serious 
consequence like banning might need to be issued by the RIPE Chair and 
possibly high-level RIPE NCC staff.

Denesh said this also depended on how much those people wanted to know. 
The TF might need to ask them to what extent they wanted to be informed.

There were no comments on the step for recording evaluations.

Antony moved on to the step on potential consequences. Leo had used the 
ladder concept from the Python framework; did they want to use an 
escalating ladder structure or just have a list? They did not want to 
imply higher consequences required crossing lower consequences as well.

Salam said the way it was currently worded suggested that , people might 
be banned from the meeting but could still go to social events. She 
asked what happened in the case where someone was grossly inappropriate 
(i.e. a sexual predator).

Athina said the section mentioned being banned from an event and from 
future events. She agreed they might need to clarify.

Brian said the social event should be mentioned specifically. There also 
should not require there to have been prior incidents before 
consequences could happen. A single violation could be severe enough to 
merit a ban. The TF should make it clear that escalation was not required.

Salam said this was clear. She asked what should happen if there were 
harassment at a venue. Would they be banned from social events?

Brian said that points four and five clarified they could be banned 
temporarily or permanently.

Salam said they should change the wording to clear up the confusion.

Brian said this partly depended on the RIPE NCC’s contract with the 
venue. If they had booked the hotel, the event planners could get the 
hotel managers to cancel the stay of violators. However, it might be 
that they would have to just ban people from event spaces. This step had 
more to do with implementation.

Denesh noted there was still work to be done on this and asked Antony to 
share the draft so they could discuss it at the next meeting.*
*

*5. Personal Risk*

Athina said the evaluators should be protected from potential legal 
damages. Leo had asked how they could protect these people to prevent 
volunteers from being discouraged. They had dealt with similar 
situations in the arbitration procedure and with the Executive Board CoC 
Team. The participants of such an evaluation must waive their rights to 
damages caused by the evaluation. The CoC TF could get this waiver by 
including it in the terms and conditions for participants at meetings, 
similar to previous waivers about meeting conduct. For MLs, they could 
add a text similar to the one about unsubscribing. This would remind 
people of their obligation to adhere to the CoC and other related 
documents, such as the CoC Team procedure. These methods would limit the 
risk, but lawsuits were still possible. Another solution could be having 
liability insurance, but they would need to investigate this further.

Brian asked where that text would be and suggested they look at what 
other communities did. He had not seen similar situations, but in the 
case of RIPE attendees, it was true they could argue their careers would 
be affected if they were banned. However, the MLs were less of a concern.*
*

*6. AOB*

Denesh suggested sharing the meeting recording with Leo.

Antony said he would share it with him.

Denesh said he would not be available for their next call on 19 November. *
*

*5. Actions**
*

*- (Ongoing) TF to think about the appropriate level of process to allow 
further improvements to the CoC.**
*

*- Antony to edit the draft document to prepare it for sharing on the ML.*
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