<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"> </head> <body> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr">The funny part is that the abuse teams of the very same companies will be out there in other conferences working earnestly and well on best practices. If they were to turn up at a ripe meeting and provide consensus .. </div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr">And before you accuse me of packing the room to generate artificial consensus please remember just how many ripe luminaries just happened to be in the room during an any other business segment of the wg a decade or so back, just so that Richard Cox could be ousted from the chair. </div> <div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature"> <div> </div> <div style="direction:ltr">--srs</div> </div> </div> <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1"> <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr">From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2023 2:23:54 PM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Abuse Report ignored. What to do as next? <div> </div> </div> <div class="BodyFragment"> <div class="PlainText">I do not agree Every organization has rules it enforces. That doesn't make it a regulator. The public transport here, where I live enforces that you have a valid ticket. That doesn't make it the transport regulator. In fact RIPE NCC will probably enforce that you pay your fees. The issue here is, that we have two subgroups: One that thinks we should try go a bit further to ensure that people do what can be expected they should be doing, and another fractions that feels every little bit of additional load is too much and will not solve the problem 100%. It's like saying we give up on speed limits because it doesn't prevent speeding. And as long as this group cannot come up with a compromise nothing will change, in essence the anti-abuse wg is taken hostage by the nay sayers. These discussions have been going on for years. Nothing new has come out. We don't even try. We could, and then see if it makes a difference. If not we go back. But nope. Best Serge On 30.11.23 09:39, Matthias Merkel wrote: > Hi Leo, > > The definition of a regulator is an entity that sets and enforces rules > on the persons it supervises. > > If the RIPE NCC goes further than just providing numbers, and instead > enforces rules on usage associated with them (note that this doesn't > even concern the use of the numbers themselves, but rather services > addressed by them), it will, by definition, be a regulator. > > I'm not sure that there will be consensus on wanting the NCC to become a > regulator. > > � > Maria Merkel > > This email was sent by Staclar, Inc. 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Novecore Licensing Ltd. is registered for VAT in the United > Kingdom under VAT registration number 347 4545 80. Novecore (Estonia) O� > is registered for VAT in the European Union under VAT registration > number EE102518979. Novecore Professional Services Ltd. is a trust or > company service provider registered with and supervised by HM Revenue & > Customs under the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of > Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (registration number > XMML00000178208). Staclar Financial Services Ltd. is an Annex 1 > financial institution registered with and supervised by the Financial > Conduct Authority under the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and > Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (firm > reference number 989521). Registration is not equivalent to > authorisation and is not an endorsement to do business with a firm. > Staclar Financial Services Ltd. is not an authorised person within the > meaning of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and does not > review, approve, or endorse financial promotions for securities issues > it is involved in or provide any form of investment advice. > Sent from Front >> On November 30, 2023 at 9:36 AM GMT+1 anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net >> <<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net">mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>> wrote: >> >> Hi Leo, >> >> I don�t see it as a regulator, I see it as one of the functions of a >> RIR. Not just provide numbers, but also ensure that they are being >> used fairly and according community agreed policies. Otherwise we >> could also say that other reasons for recovery are invalid because we >> become a regulator, right? >> >> Each RIR has measured the �level of adoption� as they progressed with >> the initial verification (and this was presented at least a couple of >> times in every RIR), so there are slides in each of them, showing the >> progress. I can try to find them for you in the previous year's events >> if you can�t find them. Also my personal experience reporting over >> 1.500 abuse cases, average per day, shows that I get more >> �happy-ending� responses from those regions than before and keeps >> going better and better, which is not the case from RIPE unfortunately. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >>> >>> > El 29 nov 2023, a las 16:09, Leo Vegoda <leo@vegoda.org >>> <<a href="mailto:leo@vegoda.org">mailto:leo@vegoda.org</a>>> escribi�: >>> > >>> > Hi Jordi, >>> > >>> > >>> > On Nov 29, 2023, at 11:29, jordi.palet--- via anti-abuse-wg >>> <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net">mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I agree that the carrot is better than the stick, but if the >>> carrot doesn�t work, we need to use the stick. >>> >> >>> >> My original proposal was basically enforcing the NCC to reclaim >>> the resources when there is a persistent violation of resolving abuse >>> cases. This can be progressive, such as not allowing to update >>> objects in the database, etc. No need to go with �a single failure >>> means you lose your resources�. >>> > >>> > How could we do this without the RIPE NCC becoming some kind of >>> regulator? Or is the proposal to make the RIPE NCC a private sector >>> regulator? >>> > >>> >> As said, this is working in other 2 regions, one more coming >>> (pending of the AFRINIC board ratification). Why should not work in >>> this region the same? Also the PoC in ARIN works in a similar way, >>> and being non-responsive means you get some �members� rights restricted. >>> > >>> > Who has been measuring the reduction is abuse? How tightly is that >>> drop in abuse linked to this policy action rather than other factors? >>> > >>> > Kind regards, >>> > >>> > Leo >>> > >>> >>> ********************************************** >>> IPv4 is over >>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>> <a href="http://www.theipv6company.com">http://www.theipv6company.com</a> <<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/">http://www.theipv6company.com/</a>> >>> The IPv6 Company >>> >>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive >>> use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty >>> authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents >>> of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is >>> strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you >>> are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if >>> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be >>> considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original >>> sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or >>> change your subscription options, please visit: >>> <a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a> >>> <<a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a>> > -- Dr. Serge Droz Member, FIRST Board of Directors <a href="https://www.first.org">https://www.first.org</a> -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: <a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a> </div> </div> </body> </html>