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<div>No, because RIPE has no authority to fine anyone. If you think someone is intentionally sending you malicious traffic, the police is the point of contact for you.</div>
<br>
<div class="front-signature">
<div>—</div>
<div>Matthias Merkel</div>
<div><img style="width: 118px; height: 14.75px;" src="https://cdn.staclar.com/logos/novecore/newlogo.png"></div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="front-blockquote">On June 2, 2022, 3:27 PM GMT+2 <a href="mailto:jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<div class="fai5rxcm front-email-body" style="word-wrap:break-word" lang="NL">
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<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Michele,</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">I have a question for u then.</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">What would happen if i can find more people that actually would want this then u can find people that don’t want this.</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Would that make a difference?</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">I’m very curious on your answer.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Kind regards</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Van:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> woensdag 1 juni 2022 13:05<br>
<b>Aan:</b> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl" target="_blank">
jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl</a>; 'denis walker' <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:ripedenis@gmail.com" target="_blank">ripedenis@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>CC:</b> 'anti-abuse-wg' <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] personal data in the RIPE Database</span></p>
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<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">Jeroen</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">“</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">- Change the current contracts with all responsible companies where they will have to pay a fine if any of their ip's has been detected and confirmed to produce
abusive traffic.<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">“</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">That will never happen and suggesting it is not helpful.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">Nobody is ever going to agree to it and it’s completely unworkable.
</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">Regards</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">Michele</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">--</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Mr Michele Neylon</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Blacknight Solutions</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Hosting, Colocation & Domains</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://www.blacknight.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://www.blacknight.com/</span></a></span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://blacknight.blog/</span></a></span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Personal blog: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://michele.blog/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://michele.blog/</span></a></span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Some thoughts: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://ceo.hosting/</span></a></span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">-------------------------------</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty</span></p>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black" lang="EN-IE">anti-abuse-wg <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a>>
on behalf of <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl" target="_blank">
jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl</a> <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl" target="_blank">jeroen@hackersbescherming.nl</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 1 June 2022 at 11:01<br>
<b>To: </b>'denis walker' <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:ripedenis@gmail.com" target="_blank">ripedenis@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>'anti-abuse-wg' <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [anti-abuse-wg] personal data in the RIPE Database</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fa-ccqphz" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-IE">[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.<br>
<br>
Good morning Denis/everyone,<br>
<br>
I believe that personal data in the RIPE public database is unwanted and adds no value at all to the public interest.<br>
<br>
Removing personal data instead of replacing it with actual "responsible organisation" data is unwanted also.<br>
<br>
To me as a public interest user personal data like assignments of ip addresses is the same as no data at all and should be avoided at all costs.<br>
<br>
The fact that a real person can be responsible for an ip address shows how immature the solution actually is.<br>
<br>
When i look at the abuse that online services receive my guess is that ~50% of online traffic is unwanted!<br>
I'm currently crunching the numbers so i can back my statements but this is what i got so far.<br>
<br>
Access log for one online service<br>
<br>
Total different ip's : little over 11K<br>
High risk ip's: 276 (combined hosting/rdp/etc)<br>
Abusers: 21 (blocked in next update)<br>
<br>
In the same period i blocked 173K requests (not IP still need to process this part)<br>
<br>
This would mean in terms of abuse i would have to send thousands of abuse emails for this single service only (this would be just stupid) how effective will that be if u send them to a "responsible person"?<br>
<br>
When i goto a grocery and steal or wreck something on purpose and get caught the police will come and i will get a big fine..... or even jail time.<br>
When i catch an abuser in the Wild Wild West, the internet makes it cost me even more money! (shouldn't i be payed for catching them?)<br>
<br>
Clearly the whole abuse part of Ripe isn't working and will never goto work as long as nobody can be held responsible for the actual damage that has been done.<br>
<br>
I would like to suggest the following:<br>
<br>
- Remove all personal data and replace with actual data from responsible companies<br>
- Change the current contracts with all responsible companies where they will have to pay a fine if any of their ip's has been detected and confirmed to produce abusive traffic.<br>
- Part of the fine will be payed to the company that caught the abuser and other part goes to Ripe for administrative costs.<br>
<br>
With the above we move the problem away from the victims to the causers as it should have been from the beginning!<br>
And yes the hosting companies will start crying about this since they never really had to take responsibility for their end-users and probably only see a small portion of the actual abuse since most abuse never get's reported since it costs the victims extra
money....<br>
<br>
If for some reason there is no company behind any personal registration i believe the resources should be removed from that member unless there is a very goo reason to keep a person responsible (i can't think of any)<br>
<br>
I'm not good at putting documents or presentations together (Ripe 84), so my excuse for that but i do have the data to backup all of the above!<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Jeroen<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<br>
Van: anti-abuse-wg <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a>> Namens denis walker<br>
Verzonden: dinsdag 31 mei 2022 19:27<br>
Aan: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
CC: anti-abuse-wg <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
Onderwerp: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] personal data in the RIPE Database<br>
<br>
Hi Michele<br>
<br>
The proposal is here<br>
<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2022-01" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2022-01</a><br>
<br>
cheers<br>
denis<br>
proposal author<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, 31 May 2022 at 18:07, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Denis<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Where’s the actual proposal?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I’d love to get my personal details removed – especially as they’re for an address I no longer occupy!<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
><br>
><br>
> Michele<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> Mr Michele Neylon<br>
><br>
> Blacknight Solutions<br>
><br>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains<br>
><br>
> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://www.blacknight.com/" target="_blank">
https://www.blacknight.com/</a><br>
><br>
> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://blacknight.blog/" target="_blank">https://blacknight.blog/</a><br>
><br>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<br>
><br>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<br>
><br>
> Personal blog: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://michele.blog/" target="_blank">
https://michele.blog/</a><br>
><br>
> Some thoughts: <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://ceo.hosting/" target="_blank">
https://ceo.hosting/</a><br>
><br>
> -------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business<br>
> Park,Sleaty<br>
><br>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: anti-abuse-wg <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a>> on behalf of<br>
> denis walker <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:ripedenis@gmail.com" target="_blank">ripedenis@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Date: Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 14:12<br>
> To: anti-abuse-wg <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" target="_blank">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
> Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] personal data in the RIPE Database<br>
><br>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.<br>
><br>
> Colleagues<br>
><br>
> I have raised an issue on the DB WG mailing list about publishing in<br>
> the database the identity of natural persons holding resources. So far<br>
> no one has been willing or able to support any public interest value<br>
> in doing so. As things stand all personal data in the RIPE Database<br>
> will have to be removed, or hidden from public view. If you have an<br>
> opinion about this the conversation is here<br>
> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2022-May/007432.html" target="_blank">
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2022-May/007432.html</a><br>
><br>
> cheers<br>
> denis<br>
> 2022-01 proposal author<br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or<br>
> change your subscription options, please visit:<br>
> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" target="_blank">
https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
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