<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 23 Feb 2022, at 18:39, Gert Doering <<a href="mailto:gert@space.net" class="">gert@space.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 07:20:48PM +0100, Tobias Knecht via anti-abuse-wg wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">I disagree with the idea of defining what abuse is for 3 reasons.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I do understand your arguments, but I'm not agreeing with the conclusion.<br class=""><br class="">If we can't agree on "this is abuse" and "that is not", how can we ever<br class="">agree on "we should do something against abuse!"?<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Exactly. We have to have some definition to use for training, at the very minimum. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">More extreme wording: why would I, as an ISP, need an abuse handling<br class="">department if I can just declare "ah, no, this is all normal customer<br class="">activity" instead?</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">So, yes, defining abuse is very hard - but if we ever want to reach<br class="">a good level of common abuse squashing, we should find a common<br class="">understanding. Like "using other people's resources (bandwidth,<br class="">money, time) without at least implicit permission, for personal gain".<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>For this training I think what we’re talking about as abuse is abuse that affects normal network operations. And I’d call out specifically that we’re not discussing ALL abuse online (maybe even touch on the other kinds of abuse that they might get reports for with an admonition to ‘pass them on to the downstream customer). We’re talking about abuse that LIRs are likely to get reports for. And many of these reports are going to be unactionable. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>I like the phrasing “abuse of the Internet” - implying that the abuse actually damages the ability of online services to interact effectively with one another. dDOS attacks, mailbombing, spam attacks (although the mail system is pretty robust), open proxies, etc. I think of it as abnormal traffic that is pushed on an unwilling recipient that disrupts the recipient’s use of the Internet. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>laura </div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">(I, for one, consider half the web sites out there abusive, with<br class="">cookie banners, insanely big graphics, and weird scrolling stuff - but<br class="">I guess most web developers would not agree to that)<br class=""><br class="">Gert Doering<br class=""> -- NetMaster<br class="">-- <br class="">have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?<br class=""><br class="">SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer<br class="">Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann<br class="">D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)<br class="">Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class=""> <meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; 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