<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Hi there, (speaking as Tobias, and not a Chair)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">I disagree with the idea of defining what abuse is for 3 reasons. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">First, we will never be going to get it done. If you ask 200 people you'll get 500 opinions. We already know that from RIPE, maawg, IETF, ICANN, and every other organization in the history of the internet and before, that tried. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Second, Spam is illegal in several countries, in a  lot of others it isn't. That doesn't make it right, but makes the definition harder. It gets more tricky when we are talking about copyright and trademark abuse. Which is by nature a very controversial topic. And there is enough other examples.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Third, abuse depends on the perspective of the victim. And yes I know this is a very controversial statement but let me explain it. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">A small hosting company will see an attack towards their infrastructure differently than AWS, GOOGLE, or Cloudflare do. What might be life-threatening for the small hosting company will not even ring a bell at the big companies? So while I agree an attack of all sorts is abusive, it still depends on what you are willing to do about it.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Do I send a spam report for every spam email I receive? No. Is it still abuse? Yes. At the end of the day, the solution to abuse is not going to have a clear definition of abuse, it's the fact that people or companies report what they consider abuse as the victim. And that is followed by what the receiver of the reports is doing about. Not a global definition. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Fourth, I know I said 3 but ...</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Abuse is changing every day and nothing is worse than old stale and outdated definitions. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">We haven't gotten definitions in the first place. So how are we keeping them up to date on a constant basis? </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Abuse Management is a very simple and very pragmatic job that needs to be done. It's no science project and no Mars mission. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">So instead of spending a ton of time on definitions, we might just be simple and pragmatic and try to teach the people that join those training sessions to make abuse a topic in their organization and start doing a decent job in receiving and handling abuse reports as good as they can. That will already make a big impact. Without any definitions. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Thanks,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">Tobias</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">-- </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="height:135.36px;padding:0px"><tbody><tr><td align="left" height="16.67" style="height:16.67px;vertical-align:top;padding:0px" valign="top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="height:16.67px"><tbody><tr><td align="left" height="16.67" nowrap style="height:16.67px;white-space:nowrap;padding:0px;border-collapse:collapse"><p style="line-height:13.33px;margin:0.1pt"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se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king place on the internet. I think that is worthy of discussion. </div><div><br></div><div>laura </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 10 Feb 2022, at 09:25, Brian Nisbet <<a href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie" target="_blank">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Colleagues,</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Since we last spoke about the proposed training the NCC have been working with various community members to put a draft syllabus in place for further discussion.</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">This is a link to the feedback document for this draft:</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBVR2w/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9Wrqu-VKGGwMfJQGK0NlTs5UzH6xJ2_HR2MkTBVR2w/edit?usp=sharing</a><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">What the NCC and the Co-Chairs would love is if everybody could just comment what they think they understand from the learning goals as they’re written and suggest any changes or additions and obviously ask any questions. We’d also like the feedback on the webinar flow design.</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">It’s important for everybody to understand that the learning objectives are the basis for the training. These are the skills that the learner must acquire. With these skills we also expect a change of attitude towards abuse handling (which is we think the purpose of this training).</span><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">While discussion on the list is welcomed and encouraged, we've also planned a Zoom session for any interested parties to discuss this further. This will take place on Wednesday 23<span>^rd February at 14:00 CET:</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span><br></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span><a href="https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09" target="_blank">https://ripe.zoom.us/j/8221791822?pwd=ZFY0MnNQeWJsTkhQSFlyeEZlUkNJQT09</a><div><br></div><div>Meeting ID: 822 179 1822<span> </span></div>Passcode: 1277<br></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span><br></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span>Hopefully with discussion on list and at the session on the 23<span>^rd we can move this into a final draft and progress from there.</span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Thanks,</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Brian</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div id="gmail-m_-2993545142322672721Signature"><div><div></div><div id="gmail-m_-2993545142322672721divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Brian Nisbet (he/him)</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Service Operations Manager</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">+35316609040<span> </span><a href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie" target="_blank">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a><span> </span><a href="http://www.heanet.ie/" target="_blank">www.heanet.ie</a></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 </div></div></div></div></div><span style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">--<span> </span></span><br style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit:<span> </span></span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="font-family:ArialMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>-- </div><div>The Delivery Experts</div><div><br></div><div>Laura Atkins</div><div>Word to the Wise</div><div><a href="mailto:laura@wordtothewise.com" target="_blank">laura@wordtothewise.com</a><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span></div><div><br></div></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Email Delivery Blog: <a href="http://wordtothewise.com/blog" target="_blank">http://wordtothewise.com/blog</a><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">      </span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br><br>
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