<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"> <style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style> </head> <body dir="ltr"> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Michele,</div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Ripe have many many expenses in the ~30M euros yearly expenses that are not related to the core goals of Ripe and can be avoid.<br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> To my opinion, this kind of anti-abuse system expense will be low and much more needed than many other expenses in the ~30M euros yearly expenses of Ripe.</div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> There will be an API for the system with an option for email notifications just like abuse complaints are received in email messages now, so there will be no overhead to your staff. Regarding the reporters - this overhead can protect from flood of automatic tools abuse complaints - if the reporter cannot fill a form and solve a captcha then the abuse complaint is not important enough to him.</div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Regarding the little to no value that you wrote, through this system there will be no spam of abuse, no spam to the abuse publicly visible email address, there will be an API to LIR's internal systems for them to better track and to better handle abuse complaints, there will be tracking if abuse complaints were handled and public visibility of the percentage (of unhandled abuse complaints) of each LIR, in Ripe website.<br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Respectfully,</div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Elad<br> </div> <div id="appendonsend"></div> <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1"> <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com><br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 29, 2020 6:50 PM<br> <b>To:</b> Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io>; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>; Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Discussion Phase (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")</font> <div> </div> </div> <style>  </style> <div lang="EN-IE" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div class="x_WordSection1"> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">Elad</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">I strongly oppose this concept.</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">It’s not up to RIPE to run this and we don’t pay RIPE fees to have them waste resources on this kind of thing.</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">It’s an extra overhead for RIPE, for our staff and for reporters and it would be bring little to no value.</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">Regards</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="">Michele</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">--</span></p> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Mr Michele Neylon</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Blacknight Solutions</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Hosting, Colocation & Domains</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">https://www.blacknight.com</span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">https://blacknight.blog /</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">http://ceo.hosting/</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">-------------------------------</span></p> </div> </div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#191919; background:white"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.5pt; color:black">R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""></span></p> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> </span></p> <div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">From: </span> </b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io><br> <b>Date: </b>Wednesday 29 April 2020 at 12:18<br> <b>To: </b>"anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>, Serge Droz <serge.droz@first.org><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Discussion Phase (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">What is this ?</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">"However, the community should report any situation to the RIPE NCC, which can provide (anonymous) periodical statistics to the community, which can take further decisions about that."</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Ripe members are informers?</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">"divide and conquer" strategy ?</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Abuse email addresses (just like any other email address) are being spammed, not only by non-relevant spammers but also by automatic useless services that are installed at servers that don't take themselves any measure of proper configuration to avoid the automatic useless services.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">To my opinion, Ripe should create its own anti-abuse system, each LIR will have login access to it (LIR will be able to choose to receive notifications through sms / email) and to mark each abuse complaint as resolved or not (that system can also have an API so LIR's will be able to pull their abuse complaints), the main issue is that complaints to that system will not be able to be done automatically or by email - only manually by form filling with captcha. (after the LIR will mark an abuse complain as resolved - the complainer will receive an email address also to confirm with him if issue is resolved or not, non-detailed statistics will be able to be displayed to the whole community - to see the percentage of how many manual complaints weren't handled by each LIR)</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">---</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Besides the above, I also believe that we as a community should not accept complainers which are not taking the most basic configuration actions to protect their systems, and would consider these complaints as spam. In order for abuse complaints not to be abused.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Respectfully,</span></p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Elad</span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> <div class="x_MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> <hr size="2" width="98%" align="center"> </span></div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> anti-abuse-wg on behalf of Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg<br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:22 AM<br> <b>To:</b> anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Discussion Phase (Validation of "abuse-mailbox") </span></p> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi All<br> <br> I think this is a good policy.<br> <br> We can always find use cases where it fails, but it will help in some<br> cases.<br> <br> And if some one is not able to answer an e-mail every six month, there<br> are probably underlying issues. Also the argument, that the bad guys<br> flood the mailbox is not really acceptable. It just means you can't<br> filter spam.<br> <br> The proposal does not check how the reports are used. But it helps us to<br> enumerate organizations, that don't act, coming up with various excuses,<br> along the lines the best problems are some one else's problems, so let's<br> make it some on else's problem.<br> <br> The fact is: Most mature organizations are perfectly capable of handling<br> such mail boxes, even if they have a high load.<br> <br> Coming from the incident response side, I'm tiered of people constantly<br> telling me, that issues are not their problem<br> <br> Best<br> Serge<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On 28.04.20 16:01, Petrit Hasani wrote:<br> > Dear colleagues,<br> > <br> > A new version of RIPE policy proposal, 2019-04, "Validation of<br> > "abuse-mailbox"", is now available for discussion.<br> > <br> > This proposal aims to have the RIPE NCC validate "abuse-c:" information<br> > more often and introduces a new validation process.<br> > <br> > Most of the text has been rewritten following the last round of<br> > discussion and the proposal is now at version 3.0. Some key points in<br> > this version:<br> > <br> > - The abuse-mailbox should not force the sender to use a form<br> > - The validation process must ensure that the abuse mailbox is able to<br> > receive messages<br> > - The validation should happen at least every six months<br> > <br> > You can find the full proposal at:<br> > <a href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04" target="_blank"> https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04</a><br> > <br> > As per the RIPE Policy Development Process (PDP), the purpose of this<br> > four-week Discussion Phase is to discuss the proposal and provide<br> > feedback to the proposer.<br> > <br> > At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of<br> > the Anti-Abuse Working Group Chairs, will decide how to proceed with the<br> > proposal.<br> > <br> > We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to<br> > <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> before 27 May 2020.<br> > <br> > Kind regards,<br> > --<br> > Petrit Hasani<br> > Policy Officer<br> > RIPE NCC<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> <br> -- <br> Dr. Serge Droz<br> Chair of the FIRST Board of Directors<br> <a href="https://www.first.org" target="_blank">https://www.first.org</a></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>