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<p>Hi Sara,</p>
<p>isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a
job of law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol? While
I agree that everyone has a role to play, crime prevention and
protection of the public is part of the LEA job description,
right? Civil society entities certainly have a role to play, but
it does not help trying to deputize them into a role they do not
carry. <br>
</p>
<p>I disagree that the contract language you quote puts any duty of
care regarding the abuse of any networks by third parties on the
parties to the agreement. That duty may arise from other sources,
but this language is directed at its own information the party
provides to RIPE NCC and the cooperation with any audits. Just
because it includes the word security does not mean it refers to
all thinkable security issues. <br>
</p>
<p>The ability of any part of the internet infrastructure to curtail
abuse that somehow touches services it providers is usually
severely curtailed and its ability to review abuse complaints is
usually limited to the resources it provides. In many cases, that
is simply not enough information to go on when dealing with many
common forms of abuse.<br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 16.01.2020 um 14:23 schrieb
Marcolla, Sara Veronica:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Very
well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern
of (at least a part of) the community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We
should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE
NCC audits, “e<i>very party that has entered into an
agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to
provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate
information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC
services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and
security checks”. </i>Complete, accurate information goes
hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions
against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social
responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and
secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS,
spammers, and criminals in general. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If
the community does not agree that everyone has the right to
a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some
issue to solve here first. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Kind
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Sara
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Europol
-
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">O3
European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Eisenhowerlaan
73, 2517 KK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">The
Hague, The Netherlands<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><a
href="http://www.europol.europa.eu" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:blue">www.europol.europa.eu</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> anti-abuse-wg
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net"><anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sérgio Rocha<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 January 2020 13:38<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new
version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking
group to any anit-abuse response measure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything
without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if
as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these
days there will be a problem that will make governments take
the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the
free and open internet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">There are a feew ideas that is simple to
understand:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">1 - If you have been assigned a network you
have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">2 - There is no problem with email, since ever
are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no
need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse,
invests in integrating these emails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse
should not have addressing, leave it to professionals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">The internet is critical for everyone, the
ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond
to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">It’s like the relation with local governments,
there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date
to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> anti-abuse-wg [<a
href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fi Shing<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version
of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">>> Best not to
judge the race until it has been fully run.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">I just do not understand
how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a
business owner that wants to reduce over heads by
abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse
desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to
flourish.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">It is idiotic and is
not ad hominem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">This list is filled with
people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the
catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin
verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone
says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these
idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that
they are and there's no resistance?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">The good news is that
nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so
.. talk away you criminals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #C2C2C2
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
2.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">--------- Original
Message --------- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">Subject: Re:
[anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04
(Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<br>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a
href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>><br>
Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>"
<<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
<br>
In message <<a
href="mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@%0bemail19.asia.godaddy.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@<br>
email19.asia.godaddy.com</a>>, "Fi Shing" <<a
href="mailto:phishing@storey.xxx"
moz-do-not-send="true">phishing@storey.xxx</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
>That is the most stupid thing i've read on this
list.<br>
<br>
Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your
judgement. It is<br>
not immediately apparent that you have been on the list
for all that long.<br>
So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer
before making such<br>
comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any
number of<br>
stupider things that may come to your attention,
including even a few<br>
from your's truly.<br>
<br>
Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run.<br>
<br>
>Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense,
because no ordinary person<br>
>that has ever received a spam email would ever say
such crap.<br>
<br>
I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful
commentary, being as<br>
it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your
agenda. It may<br>
have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a
single mind, other<br>
than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to
take the opposing<br>
position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped
to achieve.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
rfg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Volker A. Greimann<br>
<br>
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