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    <p>Hi Sara,</p>
    <p>isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a
      job of law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol? While
      I agree that everyone has a role to play, crime prevention and
      protection of the public is part of the LEA job description,
      right? Civil society entities certainly have a role to play, but
      it does not help trying to deputize them into a role they do not
      carry. <br>
    </p>
    <p>I disagree that the contract language you quote puts any duty of
      care regarding the abuse of any networks by third parties on the
      parties to the agreement. That duty may arise from other sources,
      but this language is directed at its own information the party
      provides to RIPE NCC and the cooperation with any audits. Just
      because it includes the word security does not mean it refers to
      all thinkable security issues. <br>
    </p>
    <p>The ability of any part of the internet infrastructure to curtail
      abuse that somehow touches services it providers is usually
      severely curtailed and its ability to review abuse complaints is
      usually limited to the resources it provides. In many cases, that
      is simply not enough information to go on when dealing with many
      common forms of abuse.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Best,</p>
    <p>Volker<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 16.01.2020 um 14:23 schrieb
      Marcolla, Sara Veronica:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Very
            well put, Sérgio. Thank you for voicing clearly the concern
            of (at least a part of) the community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We
            should not forget that, according to the provisions of RIPE
            NCC audits, “e<i>very party that has entered into an
              agreement with the RIPE NCC is contractually obliged to
              provide the RIPE NCC with complete, updated and accurate
              information necessary for the provision of the RIPE NCC
              services and to assist the RIPE NCC with audits and
              security checks”.  </i>Complete, accurate information goes
            hand in hand with a duty of care, of promptly taking actions
            against abuse, and should be accompanied by a social
            responsibility of trying to make the Internet a safe and
            secure place for everyone, thus not enabling actively DDoS,
            spammers, and criminals in general.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If
            the community does not agree that everyone has the right to
            a safe, spam free, crime free Internet, maybe we have some
            issue to solve here first. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Kind
            regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Sara
              <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Europol
              -
            </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">O3
            European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">Eisenhowerlaan
            73, 2517 KK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D">The
            Hague, The Netherlands<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#00245D"><a
              href="http://www.europol.europa.eu" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                style="font-family:"Times New
                Roman",serif;color:blue">www.europol.europa.eu</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
                lang="EN-US"> anti-abuse-wg
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net"><anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net></a>
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sérgio Rocha<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> 16 January 2020 13:38<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new
                version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">Agree, This anti-abuse list seems the blocking
            group to any anit-abuse response measure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">It's amazing that nobody cant propose anything
            without receiving a shower of all sorts of arguments against<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">There is an idea that everyone has to hold, if
            as a community we cannot organize a policy, one of these
            days there will be a problem that will make governments take
            the opportunity to legislate and we will no longer have the
            free and open internet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">There are a feew ideas that is simple to
            understand:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">1 - If you have been assigned a network you
            have responsibilities, paying should not be the only one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">2 - There is no problem with email, since ever
            are made solutions to integrate with emails. There is no
            need to invent a new protocol. Who has a lot of abuse,
            invests in integrating these emails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">3 - If you have no ability to manage abuse
            should not have addressing, leave it to professionals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">The internet is critical for everyone, the
            ability for actors to communicate with each other to respond
            to abuse must exist and RIPE must ensure that it exists.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">It’s like the relation with local governments,
            there is a set of information that has to be kept up to date
            to avoid problems, in RIPE it must be the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US">Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
            lang="EN-US"> anti-abuse-wg [<a
              href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a>]
            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fi Shing<br>
            <b>Sent:</b> 16 de janeiro de 2020 04:55<br>
            <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version
            of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">>> Best not to
              judge the race until it has been fully run.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">I just do not understand
              how anyone on this list (other than a criminal or a
              business owner that wants to reduce over heads by
              abolishing an employee who has to sit and monitor an abuse
              desk) could be talking about making it easier for abuse to
              flourish.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">It is idiotic and is
              not ad hominem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">This list is filled with
              people who argue for weeks, perhaps months, about the
              catastrophic world ending dangers of making an admin
              verify an abuse address ONCE a year .... and then someone
              says "let's abolish abuse desk all together" and these
              idiots emerge from the wood work like the termites that
              they are and there's no resistance?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">The good news is that
              nothing talked about on this list is ever implemented, so
              .. talk away you criminals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #C2C2C2
          1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
          2.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">--------- Original
              Message --------- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PT">Subject: Re:
                [anti-abuse-wg] working in new version of 2019-04
                (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")<br>
                From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a
                  href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>><br>
                Date: 1/16/20 11:47 am<br>
                To: "<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>"
                <<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a>><br>
                <br>
                In message <<a
href="mailto:20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@%0bemail19.asia.godaddy.com"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">20200115155949.af7f9f79718891d8e76b551cf73e1563.e548b98006.mailapi@<br>
                  email19.asia.godaddy.com</a>>, "Fi Shing" <<a
                  href="mailto:phishing@storey.xxx"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">phishing@storey.xxx</a>>
                wrote:<br>
                <br>
                >That is the most stupid thing i've read on this
                list.<br>
                <br>
                Well, I think you shouldn't be quite so harsh in your
                judgement. It is<br>
                not immediately apparent that you have been on the list
                for all that long.<br>
                So perhaps you should stick around for awhile longer
                before making such<br>
                comments. If you do, I feel sure that there will be any
                number of<br>
                stupider things that may come to your attention,
                including even a few<br>
                from your's truly.<br>
                <br>
                Best not to judge the race until it has been fully run.<br>
                <br>
                >Which criminal is paying you to say this nonsense,
                because no ordinary person<br>
                >that has ever received a spam email would ever say
                such crap.<br>
                <br>
                I would also offer the suggestion that such inartful
                commentary, being as<br>
                it is, ad hominem, is not at all likely to advance your
                agenda. It may<br>
                have felt good, but I doubt that you have changed a
                single mind, other<br>
                than perhaps one or two who will now be persuaded to
                take the opposing<br>
                position, relative to whatever it was that you had hoped
                to achieve.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                Regards,<br>
                rfg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
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    </blockquote>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      Volker A. Greimann<br>
      <br>
    </div>
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