<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style id=axi-htmleditor-style></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>This will not work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Allowing every resource holder in the world to use their own form means that you need to develop tons of specific reporting tools to match all those specific formats and bring the cost of that to the victims. Meanwhile, if reporting is done by email, attaching logs, it can be processed by the ISP that get the money from the abusive customer, and if the cost (if any) falls on the right side.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>In addition to that, RFC5965 is only for reporting about email, but not other abuse cases. I agree that ideally, we should have X-ARF as a standard for *<b>any</b>* abuse reporting, and if you followed the previous discussion (a few weeks ago), I’m already working on that, but this will take typically 2 years. When this happens, we can update the existing policy to mandate the use of that standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><br>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 18/5/19 14:36, "Alex de Joode" <<a href="mailto:alex@idgara.nl">alex@idgara.nl</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Thanks Jordi,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>You cannot force LIR's to act in the fashion below (that is wishful thinking). However you can make transparant, how abuse desks deal with complaints.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I would therefore suggest the following:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Keep the current validation procedure, add a date to the abuse-whois, when the address was last sucessfully checked. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Give LIR's the options to add an acceptable abuse format for automated processing to the whois.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>By this you - make visible the adres works;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> - make the abuse whois act as a source for how responsible organisations deal with abuse.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I could image there would be the one or more of the following options:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{blank} = not filled in by LIR<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{manual} = LIR handles abuse in a manual fashion<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{XARF} = accepts Xarf/RFC5965 form and handles them automatically<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{other specification, maybe with URL}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{api with url}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>{'whatever'}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This would be more valuable for the whole global abuse handling process than the burdensome time waster that is now proposed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>IDGARA | Alex de Joode | +31651108221<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br>On Sat, 18-05-2019 13h 31min, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Alex,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The intent of this policy is to ensure that the validation process is useful, and that means ensuring that the inbox is working, real (not from somebody else), monitored for abuse reports (automatically is ok if it really works, but there must be a way for human participation), and that those that send abuse reports don’t need to use a different form for every possible LIR in the world, which is not viable (unless there is a common standard for that – work in parallel but may take years).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>A responsible organization will deal with abuse reports, and having a working abuse-c is part of it, otherwise people can’t report abuse cases. If abuse cases are ignored you escalate to the NCC or courts, or whatever, that’s another layer.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><br>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'>El 16/5/19 22:42, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Alex de Joode" <<a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net">anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net</a> en nombre de <a href="mailto:alex@idgara.nl">alex@idgara.nl</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ola,</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It's unclear to me what you are trying to accomplish with this policy:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.8pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ensure ripe members have a working (as in receiving mail) abuse email address;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.8pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and process incoming mails;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.8pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and read it;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.8pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and act responsibly on notices.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It seems you want to verify that a human reads the abuse box. However this will tell you nothing about how an organisation actually deals with abuse. So it will only burden ripe members to no avail.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It is my belief ripe should stick to technical verification that a abuse email box exists and is able to receive mail. Ripe is not the internet sheriff :)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Alex</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:70.8pt'>IDGARA | Alex de Joode | +31651108221<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><br>**********************************************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>http://www.theipv6company.com<br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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