<html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi Ronald, I am sending this email on behalf of Athina who is currently on vacation. Apologies for the delay in our response, it took us a while to verify the accuracy of our numbers. We can confirm that exactly three memberships have been terminated so far in 2016 for “non-financial” reasons, and one further case is currently in process. We terminated four memberships in 2015. It is worth noting that so far we have never terminated a membership following a report from an external party — these terminations were the result of our own investigations regarding the submission of false or fraudulent information that were initiated after suspicious member activity. Regarding the other numbers we provided, we do not report on actions taken as the result of reports received through the form on our website. This is due to a concern that it could be used maliciously (e.g. people reporting on their competitors). We thought it would be helpful to show the kinds of reports we receive, but agree that this only provides part of the picture. When we receive a report through the form we always take action where appropriate. Best regards, Ingrid Wijte Assistant manager Registration Services RIPE NCC <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/08/2016 10:02, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: </div> <blockquote cite="mid:74479.1471161733@server1.tristatelogic.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Ms. Fragkouli, Thank you for providing the Anti-Abuse Working Group with numerical information relating to your department's processing of "complaints" (which I personally prefer to call "reports") during 2016 and 2015. Unfortunately, something seems to have been lost in translation, as my request made its way to you, and thus, the numbers you provided, although interesting, do not actually answer the questions that I was was interested in obtaining answers for, as I explain below. In message <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:5b6fca31-1033-7120-efb0-7d7e0eb604fe@ripe.net"><5b6fca31-1033-7120-efb0-7d7e0eb604fe@ripe.net></a>, Athina Fragkouli <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:athina.fragkouli@ripe.net"><athina.fragkouli@ripe.net></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">So far in 2016... Around four memberships have been terminated for one of these other reasons (submitting fraudulent documents, failure to comply with audits or failure to supply proof of existence). </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Around four? Would it be possible for you to be a bit more specific? </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">In 2015, we received 319 reports through the form: - 131 were reported as incorrect data in the RIPE Database. 67 of these required further investigation by the RIPE NCC. - 180 cases were reported as policy violations, untruthful information or were related to bankruptcy. 143 of these cases turned out not to be policy violations, seven could not be followed up due to lack of information and five resulted in further inquiries. 25 did indeed concern policy violations, untruthful information, or bankruptcy. - Eight cases were not classified as abuse reports but were investigated nonetheless. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> It is always wonderful to have concrete numbers to work with, except of course in cases where the numbers in question have more to do with irrelevancies (e.g. the price of tea in China, as we say here) than they have to do with the actual topic at hand. Ms. Fragkouli, I may perhaps be the only one, but I cannot help but notice that in and among all of the various figures you've quoted, authoritatively, above, there is no number which indicates -either- (a) the total number of cases in which RIPE NCC actually did take some action, i.e. -any- action, against any member in 2015 -or- (b) the specific number of cases in 2015 in which RIPE NCC took some action or actions against a member that was actually relevant to the interests and work of the Anti-Abuse Working Group specifically. (I don't believe that any of us here are really all that interested to know how many RIPE NCC members went bankrupt in 2015.) Perhaps I have only failed to read your comments clearly... and if so, I do apologize for that... but whereas I see that you have clearly said how you and your department -categorized- all of the 2015 reports you processed, I do not see any clear statement from you about how many actual -actions- against members were instituted in 2015. I would like to obtain that number, i.e. the number of actual 2015 actions, not counting financially-related ones. Ms. Fragkouli, would it perhaps be possible for the RIPE NCC staff to provide a number... both for calendar 2015 and also, perhaps, for prior years... that would accurately reflect the number of cases (e.g. in 2015 at least) where RIPE NCC actually -did- take the action of discontinuing the membership of a member for reasons -other than- the non-payment of fees or bankruptcy? To be sure we are clear, it is really only the total number of non- financial-related actual termination actions that are of interest here in the WG. If you could provide those numbers, that would be most helpful. I thank you in advance for your help and participation. Regards, rfg </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>