[anti-abuse-wg] @EXT: RE: working in new version of 2019-04 (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")

Hi Jordi,

your example seems a bit off though. If your contract is with your ISP 
and you need to complain to them, why would you complain to another ISP 
you have no contract with?

I agree that current GDPR implementations may impact the contactibility 
of the customer, but that can be improved in GDPR-compliant manners that 
do not require playing chinese whispers down the chain.

Not objecting to your 3. but you need to consider it may not be the 
contractual partner acting against the contract. They may be a victim as 
well, and therefore enforcing any actions against them may be 
unproductive. Would you shut down Google.com because of one link to a 
site violating third party rights?

Best,

Volker

Am 16.01.2020 um 15:52 schrieb JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg:
>
> Hi Volker,
>
> I don’t agree with that, because:
>
>  1. I believe the electricity sample I provided proves otherwise. My
>     contract is with the electricity provider (the Internet provider),
>     so I need to complain to them and they need to follow the chain.
>  2. For a victim, to complain directly to the customer (not the
>     operator), will need to know the data of the “abuser” which may be
>     protected by GDPR.
>  3. Customers sign a contract with the operator. The contract must
>     have clear conditions (AUP) about the appropriate use of the
>     network. If you act against that contract, the problem is with the
>     operator, not victims.
>
> By the way, if an operator has a badly designed AUP, either they are 
> doing a bad job, or they have **no interest** in acting against abuses.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 16/1/20 15:44, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Volker Greimann" 
> <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net 
> <mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de 
> vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> escribió:
>
> Obviously every user should lock their doors / protect themselves 
> against fraud. I am just saying that the ability of many service 
> providers to curtail abuse of their system (without impacting 
> legitimate uses) is very limited as it may not their customers doing 
> the abusing and any targeted action against those customers 
> themselvesd would be inappropriate and affect many legitimate users of 
> their services.
>
> At what point should a network service provider remove privileges from 
> a customer that is himself being abused but is technically unable to 
> deal with it properly? Would the complaint not be better directed at 
> that customer, not the provider, since they are the ones that can 
> resolve this issue in a more targetted and appropriate manner? How 
> does the service provider differentiate between a customer that is 
> abusing vs one that is being abused?  Deputising the service providers 
> will not necessarily solve the problems, and possibly create many new 
> ones.
>
> In the domain industry, we were required to provide an abuse contact, 
> however the reports we get to that address usually deal with issues we 
> cannot do much about other than pulling or deactivating the domain 
> name, which is usually the nuclear option. So we spend our time 
> forwarding abuse mails to our customers that the complainant should 
> have sent to the customer directly.
>
> Best,
>
> volker
>
> Am 16.01.2020 um 15:16 schrieb Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg:
>
>     Hi Volker
>
>     On 16/01/2020 15:03, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
>         isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a job of
>
>         law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol?
>
>     Law enforcement's job primarily is arresting criminals. And yes they do
>
>     prevention. But you can't stop locking your door or walk by fight just
>
>     ignoring it, because it's LEA's job.
>
>     This is even more true on the internet, where CERT's have long been
>
>     working together fighting cybercrime etc.
>
>     While there obviously is an appeal to the notion of "The best problems
>
>     are some one else's problem" my believe is we don't want to have an
>
>     internet or a world, for that matter, where this is how things run. The
>
>     internet is a bottom up thing, it is so cool because people follow
>
>     protocols, that are not law.
>
>     There was a time whn this wasn't a given: During the "Browser wars"
>
>     different producer leveraged ambiguities in the HTML standard, and the
>
>     end result was horrible.
>
>     We don't want this. If we delegate the problem, we've already lost.
>
>     Best
>
>     Serge
>
> -- 
> Volker A. Greimann
> General Counsel and Policy Manager
> *KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH*
>
> T: +49 6894 9396901
> M: +49 6894 9396851
> F: +49 6894 9396851
> W: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of 
> Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in 
> England and Wales with company number 8576358.
>
>
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-- 
Volker A. Greimann
General Counsel and Policy Manager
*KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH*

T: +49 6894 9396901
M: +49 6894 9396851
F: +49 6894 9396851
W: www.key-systems.net

Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of 
Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835
CEO: Alexander Siffrin

Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in 
England and Wales with company number 8576358.
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