[anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach

It’a very much because of internet has become part of unitiy to my point of
view.

Any policy that says “if you do bad thing we taking your IP number back” is
very much like “if you do bad thing we cut your water/electricity off”.

Ask unity provider(us, who providing internet) to become vigilante are not
only dangers but also not working in a world with laws and juridictions,
policing should be done by police, juridical power should only exist with
court and judges, period. Having a registry database really doesn’t justify
to having juridical power or policing power in any sinarios.

Similar policy around globe like “anti-shutdown” where we take Ip back if
gov shuts down, it’s basic logic are the same, if someone do something bad,
we take IP back.

So as I started my conversation , how about a policy about murder is a
address policy violation, speeding in the street is a address policy
violation, etc.

The whole discussion here is not about if those actions are bad, it’s
simply about it’s police’s business, not registry’s.

Hijacking IP and damaging someone’s business is illegal, so you should go
to police for it. If police needs information, with court order ripe NCC
can provides it, and that ends our good citizen responsibility, we are not
the police and we do not judge what people did is legal or not, nor we have
such rights to do so.









On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 18:39 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Out here in India there’s this entertaining habit people have of tapping
> into an electric pole and running a wire from there to whatever temporary
> lighting they’ve set up (like at a construction site, or in the slums) –
> without asking the utility about it of course.  But this is going off topic
> eh.  All the power theft examples in the world are best discussed over a
> beer in the next RIPE meeting to spare the admins’ sanity here ☺
>
>
>
> *From: *Lu Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2019 at 4:05 PM
> *To: *Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *ac <ac at main.me>, "anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
>
>
>
> No they don’t.(not the pay bill part, that is different story, putting
> here is both misleading and out of discussion)
>
>
>
> If you illegally drawing power in your neighbor house, they will not cut
> your home electricity off. Your neigbor(most likely than electricity
> company) will report to the cop and you get busted.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 18:31 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> What, you don’t get cut off by your electric utility if you don’t pay your
> bill or are illegally drawing power?   They might call the cops if you have
> tapped into a power line on your own, but they’ll sure disconnect you first.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> on behalf of Lu
> Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com>
>
>
> *Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2019 at 4:00 PM
> *To: *ac <ac at main.me>
> *Cc: *"anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
>
>
>
> When you stealing electricity the electricity company will not cut your
> electricity at home but report you to the policy.
>
>
>
> No one saying stealing is ok, but no one agrees electricity company should
> have policing power.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 18:27 ac <ac at main.me> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 18:04:22 +0800
> Lu Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com> wrote:
> >
> > It’s very much like electricity company tell you if you do something
> > bad we will cut you off and stop supply electricity.and yes, they
> > will cut you if you stop paying them, but that doesn’t mean they can
>
> they also cut if you cheat by stealing electricity.
>
> you not talk about stealing but you and Nick talk about how use
> electricity.
>
> use any way you like, ripe not internet police, but you no steal, okay?
>
> > make themselve self juridical court in any bad thing happen in this
> > world.
> >
> not every bad thing, just administrative duty to say stealing is stealing.
>
> stealing not the same as using electricity to fry naughty neighbor in
> chair.
>
> stealing is when you no pay for electricity you use to fry neighbor, see?
>
> you use for anything bad, this your business, ripe not judicial court,
> administrative authority.
>
> but you no hijack, okay?
>
> > Internet, or registry, are starting if not already is, become part of
> > base infrastructure of the society, but that does not give us any
> > rights in the society to become the supreme court of the society,
> > just like your water company or electricity company won’t judge you
> > for what you use water or electricity for.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 16:54 ac <ac at main.me> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ugh, english. I do not mean external as in outside I meant external
> > > as in not
> > > allocated.
> > >
> > > for example: complaint received about 147g8oobra912cx47.com
> > >
> > > versus a HIJACKING complaint received about apple.com
> > >
> > > my argument would be that; as 147Goobra912cX.com is not allocated,
> > > any complaints about such a resource is outside the scope of any
> > > administrative authority - and ianal, but, some of what Nick
> > > Hilliard said, may apply. Same as abuse BY a resource, when what
> > > Nick Hilliard said, may also apply.
> > >
> > > The main point is that;
> > >
> > > Because: "hijacking" of a domain name (or any resource) is a direct
> > > administrative issue (this is factual - as per my previous post)
> > >
> > > BUT
> > >
> > > abuse BY a domain name (or any resource) is not necessarily an
> > > administrative issue at all (this is debatable/opinion) - as you
> > > said "some" TLD responds some do not...and RIPE NCC is not the
> > > Internet Police....
> > >
> > > So, anyway, as 2019-03 deals with hijacking, this entire over reach
> > > argument is factually not relevant at all
> > >
> > > and, more so: 2019-03 not proceeding would be counter to the ethical
> > > administration of resources, a dereliction of responsibility and a
> > > breach of trust implied in any such administration (as well as
> > > administrative authority)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:20:01 +0000
> > > Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > They either find out for themselves or someone else points it out
> > > > to them. In either case their responsibility continues if what
> > > > you say holds good
> > > >
> > > > --srs
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> on behalf of
> > > > ac <ac at main.me> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 1:44 PM
> > > > To: anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > some of what the wg discusses are opinions and some things are
> > > > scientific facts.
> > > >
> > > > scientific facts may change as environments and other variables
> > > > change, but currently it is so that;
> > > >
> > > > there is NO TLD registry that will allow the ongoing random
> > > > hijacking of domain names (under that TLD of course)
> > > >
> > > > as, this would mean that the TLD does not need to exist at all
> > > > and/or it will not have any trust/value.
> > > >
> > > > RIPE NCC though, is factually a resource administrative authority.
> > > >
> > > > As such, it does need to administer resources and an integral
> > > > part of that resource administration is the core responsibility
> > > > implied by such administration itself and the balance of
> > > > exercising such authority with the implied and direct
> > > > responsibility of any such administration.
> > > >
> > > > Factually, the authority to allocate (or not) is administrative.
> > > >
> > > > I think (my opinion) is that the confusion arises due to whether a
> > > > resource (whether it be a domain name, ip number, etc) is
> > > > allocated, or not. When resources are allocated the
> > > > administrative responsibility is not degraded, in fact a very
> > > > strong argument could be made that the inverse is true: Allocated
> > > > resources increases the level of administrative authority,
> > > > responsibility and all of the administration aspects themselves.
> > > >
> > > > Now, TLD (or RIPE NCC) managing **"external"** complaints about
> > > > direct abuse, is, imho, outside the scope of an administrative
> > > > authority and would be the scenario Nick Hilliard refers to. Then
> > > > again, this is my opinion, so I may be completely wrong (or
> > > > not) :)
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 07:27:40 +0000
> > > > Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > There's also the interesting comparison of how some TLD
> > > > > registries - many of them - act on canceling spam and phish
> > > > > domains while others go to every extreme not to do so.
> > > > >
> > > > > --srs
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> on behalf
> > > > > of ac <ac at main.me> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:16 AM
> > > > > To: anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net
> > > > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:13:20 +0000
> > > > > Nick Hilliard <nick at foobar.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Regarding over-reach, the RIPE NCC was instituted as a
> > > > > > numbering registry and as a supporting organisation for the
> > > > > > RIPE Community, whose terms of reference are described in the
> > > > > > RIPE-1 document. The terms of reference make it clear that
> > > > > > the purpose of the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC is
> > > > > > internet co-ordination and - pointedly
> > > > > > - not enforcement. Proposal 2019-03 goes well outside the
> > > > > > scope of what the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC were
> > > > > > constituted to do, and I do not believe that the Anti Abuse
> > > > > > working group has the authority to override this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > the wg is not overriding anything. 2019-03 is about removing
> > > > > resources, in much the same way as same resources would have
> > > > > been removed for payment. (RIPE NCC accounts person would
> > > > > "judge" that there was no payment and resources would be
> > > > > affected)
> > > > >
> > > > > Just because there is a decision it does not mean that such a
> > > > > decision
> > > > >
> > > > > is "law enforcement" or judicial.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2019-03 is administrative
> > > > >
> > > > > and not legal/law/judicial
> > > > >
> > > > > > The second point relates to the long term consequences of the
> > > > > > proposal. If the RIPE Community were to pass this policy,
> > > > > > then it would direct the RIPE NCC to act as both a judiciary
> > > > > > and policing agency for internet abuse. Judgement and
> > > > > > enforcement of behaviour are the competence of national
> > > > > > governments, courts and law
> > > > >
> > > > > No. You are saying the same thing, though eloquently, in a
> > > > > different way and trying to link it to some future potential
> > > > > hijacking by gov of RIR.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not much of a decision that RIPE NCC has to make either
> > > > > as:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. There was hijacking
> > > > >
> > > > > OR
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. There was no hijacking
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether it was accidental, ongoing for long period of time and
> > > > > all the other technical and scientific facts, this may require
> > > > > some sort of interpretation of facts.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, not whether it actually happened or not.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, this is not how to handle the problem of BGP hijacking.
> > > > > > Even if it had the slightest possibility of making any
> > > > > > difference at a technical level (which it won't), the
> > > > > > proposal would set the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC down a
> > > > > > road which I believe would be extremely unwise to take from a
> > > > > > legal and political point of view, and which would be
> > > > > > difficult, if not impossible to manoeuver out of.
> > > > > ianal, NCC legal will surely evaluate the legal aspects, but
> > > > > practically every new shell company that has to deal with
> > > > > compliance and other issues is just another layer in the onion.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > --
> > Kind regards.
> > Lu
>
> --
>
> --
> Kind regards.
> Lu
>
> --
>
> --
> Kind regards.
> Lu
>
-- 
--
Kind regards.
Lu
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