[anti-abuse-wg] WHOIS (AS204224)

In message <20151102212059.GC47126 at cilantro.c4inet.net>, 
"Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg at c4inet.net> wrote:

>On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 12:29:18PM -0800, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
>>
>>Someone needs to CALL the phone number listed there and simply ask if
>>Mr. Soloviev is available.  Once he is on the line, someone needs to ask
>>if he even works for Mashzavod Marketing Services, and if so, whether or
>>not he or his company requested an AS from RIPE NCC in early July.
>
>Do you actually operate a network? I think no, because then it
>would be obvious to you how utterly unmanageable such a setup
>would be.
>Do you seriously propose that DB objects can only be created
>during NCC business hours (8-17h MET, ttbomk)? 

I do apologize.  Apparently, I failed to make my meaning clear,
and this in turn led you to rather entirely misconstrue my comments.

I was most definitely *not* proposing that a manual, human-powered
process be followed for the verification of each and every addition
or change to the RIPE WHOIS data base.  I agree with you completely
that this would be ridiculously labor-intensive and, as you put it
"unmanagable".

Someone asked me how the WHOIS information which is already in the
data base, specifically and only for AS204224, might be shown or
demonstrated to be fradulent.  I responded that if anyone really
and truly wanted to know, or find out, IN THIS ONE VERY SPECIFIC
CASE whether or not the WHOIS data if fraudlent, that somebody
could very easily get up off his or her laurels, pick up the phone,
and make a call.

Again, I did not, by any stretch of the imagination, propose this
manual approach might be something that could or should be used
routinely.  Someone asked how it could be known that AS204224,
in particular, was/is fradulent.  In response, I then described a
simple and straightforward experiment that could be used in this
one case to find an answer quickly, and to everyone's satisfaction.
I did this only to illustrate just how silly it is to assert that
"we cannot know" whether AS204224 is fradulent or not.  (Of course
we can know!  This isn't some great and insoluable mystery like
the meaning of life or the ultimate fate of the Universe after all.)

>If you do believe you have evidence that there is something
>fraudulent going on, make a complaint here:

I do believe it.  The available facts seem to rule out any other
conclusion.  But it seems to me perfectly and utterly pointless
to me to waste either my time or that of RIPE NCC with a formal
report about this one single and particular instance of fraudulent
WHOIS data.  There are many many other itmes in the RIPE WHOIS data
base that are also fradulent or, at the very least, highly dubious
also.  What is the point of getting one single such record removed
or corrected when the _process_ that allows such garbage to creep
into the date base remains the same as it was yesterday, and the
day before that, and the year before that, and so on?

If the fraudulent record gets removed today, what is there to prevent
the exact same fraudsters from coming back tomorrow, and just getting
another set of brand new AS numbers, and creating yet another set of
fradulent WHOIS records?

>Instead I see pages of ridicule and demands to change the RIPEDB
>to something you want it to be.

I ridicule only that which is ridiculous.

As regards to my request (not demand) that the RIPE data base be
something that I want it to be, yes, you're right.  I would very
much like it to be something that it is not:  Accurate.

>Tell me, how much are you paying
>for access to the database? People like you are the very reason I
>am campaigning to make the database accessible to paying and
>identified members only. 

Just curious.  How is that campaign progressing?

While I am sure that your proposal would be warmly welcomed by the
totalitarian dictatorships, if any, which might still exist within
the RIPE geographical region, I'm not sure that it will go over as
well in the various open western-style liberal democracies that are
common in the region.

Oh!  Wait!  I just found the list of countries included in the RIPE
region, and I see that Saudi Arabia is on the list.  Qatar too!

Certainly the Saudis, Qatar, Mr. Putin's Russia, and of course
Luxembourg and Switzerland (both always keen to embrace secrecy)
will most likely support your proposal.  Others?  Maybe not so
much.


Regards,
rfg