[anti-abuse-wg] DRAFT: RIPE proposal - implementation of an

On 9 Apr 2010, at 11:08, Frank Gadegast , Dipl-Inform. Frank Gadegast wrote:

> 
>   First a ...
> 
> Hello (thats good tone in Germany),
> 
>> Again - if you expect there to be ANY dialogue you need to drop that attitude
>> 
>> It's offensive and totally unhelpful
> 
> Well, like we say in Germany: people are only offended, if somebody
> gets them, thats they are doing something wrong.
> 
> This is defny not against you or any other member that takes care
> about abuse reports.
> 
> Its only against members, that are ignoring that there attitude
> or business model causes real harm to others.
> I will keep THAT attitute.

As someone who has spent a lot of money and time combatting network abuse I find your attitude completely unhelpful

If you want to get "buy in" from as many RIPE members as possible you really need to learn to tone it down


> 
>> I'm having difficulty understanding this.
>> 
>> If a RIPE member has an abuse contact and sets up abuse contact objects for every allocation, why do you need anything else?
> 
> Like I outline already:
> - whois is complicated and unusefull for end users
> - IRT objects makes it even more complicated
> - nobody is meassuring the members so far

Why is measuring the data of any use to any one?

What data are you trying to measure?


> - nobody has detailed data about how much abuse is really happening
>  except really well-known blacklists like spamhaus

Again - I fail to see how this is of any real use to anyone.

The only people who seem to benefit from lots of data are vendors trying to sell "solutions"


> 
>>> But feel free to explain these "business models" to me ...
>> 
>> Again - drop the attitude
>> 
>> You have to understand that not every RIPE member offers the same services or has the same resources at their disposal etc.,
> 
> Again, please give me an example, why any business model should ignore,
> that the business model is causing real harm to others.

You're not listening

Not all RIPE members offer connectivity in the same way nor do they have the same types of services.

You assume that my comment about business models infers that people would ignore an issue. This is not in the least bit helpful

What you need to understand is that not every single RIPE member is going to be doing the same thing and may not be aware of or need to be aware of certain things.

Lack of awareness does not equate with anything more than lack of awareness, however you seem to think that a bit of ignorance equates with culpability.


> 
> An example please.
> 
>>>>> "Bad providers" could be even published by RIPE :o)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Are you insane? RIPE cannot open itself up for that kind of liability
>>> 
>>> Why not, blacklists are doing the same, whats the difference ?
>> 
>> Ask a lawyer.
> 
> More details please.

Seriously - if you cannot understand why RIPE (or anyone else) publishing a list of companies that are described as "bad" does not open it up to liability then you really need to talk to your legal team (if you have one)

Spamhaus et al get hit with legal threats on a regular basis.

As a sponsor of Spamhaus we've had people try to get us involved in the past .. 

> 
>>>>> Well, thats only work at RIPE NCC, its not that complicated to
>>>>> automated bounces ...
>>>> 
>>>> So you say .. 
>>> 
>>> Yes, its quite easy.
>> 
>> No it isn't. 
> 
> It is, we developed our own blacklist, and that wasnt that much work.

You obviously have a lot of technical staff. Not every RIPE member does nor needs to.

You need to understand that just because something is "easy" for you due to your particular setup does not mean that it is going to be as "easy" for everyone else


> A powerfull organisation with competent workers like RIPE would create
> that in really short time.
> 
> Please give me arguments, why its soo complicated.
> 
> Mailtools are wellknown, open source and available for nearly everything
> you might want to do with mail.
> It is easy, I was even already thinking about to use our own
> blacklist as testbed, we not all available abuse contacts anyway
> and to setup a general formatted email address is two lines
> in the mailserver config and to pump that in a script that
> forwards the mail after looking up the correct address is a
> ten-liner in perl.
> 
> Im still thinking about this testbed, the only problem is:
> - our abuse addresses we have might not be as reliable
>  than RIPE will have them and it would be really bad to accuse
>  the wrong person or even expose details to the wrong
>  person
> 
> If I would get complete access to all personal objects at RIPE in
> a live process, a would think about the testbed again ...
> 
> I could even sign whatever non-disclosure to ensure, that we
> are not doing anything wrong with this data.
> 
>> Either:
>> 
>> - learn how to discuss this with other RIPE members
>> or
>> 
>> keep on with your stupid attitude and see how far it gets you
> 
> Hm, Im not starting with words like "stupid", so please do not
> reglement my tone and cool down first.


> 
> You seem to fight heavily against any idea arriving here.
> What are you so frightened about ?

If you present what could be potentially be a positive thing in this manner it will not be accepted by people for a multitude of reasons, not least your tunneled view of the world.



> 
>>>> You cannot speak for all providers / RIPE members.
>>> 
>>> Thats one of the reasons for a centralized system located at RIPE.
>>> The system only needs to be implemented once, there will be nearly
>>> no costs on the members side (except that they have
>>> to deal with report, but they can still ignore them and except
>>> the costs that might be added to RIPEs fees, but that should not be that
>>> much.
>> 
>> You do not know that.
>> 
>> You have no way of knowing how much of a load would be placed on RIPE's systems
> 
> Sure, but RIPE is using millions of EUR yearly to get everything going.
> You are an ISP yourself, make a guess, how much that costs
> if you do not have to make provit.
> 
> I quick guess:
> - a redundant mailserver environment capable of what ? deliver 50 mio mails a day ?
> - a would say 100GB traffic/day and 25 highend server
> - thats about 3000 EUR traffic-costs a month
> - and about 50 thousand one time invest for the servers
> 
> - plus the development, I would implement something like this with
>  one month work, ok 5.000
> - plus hirering one person to take care about hardware and special cases, that
>  3.000/month

OK, but centralising anything like this has a lot of negative consequences that other list members have outlined.

> 
> All together, lets say 6.000 per month plus the invest.
> And now devide this to all members with the usual scale
> (small pay less than big members), how much would that add
> to the normal yearly membership costs ?
> Could somebody could quickly compare that to the last yearly costs at RIPE ?
> 
> You can save that if you only cut 30 peoples journeys to nice holiday locations
> for "meetings" that could be done via modern comunication techniques anyway
> per year.

Face to face meetings work better for a LOT of people.



> 
>>>>> Well, the monitoring system could send always the same backlink
>>>>> for the same IP, so that the ISP could still count the amount
>>>>> of incoming reports for one IP automatically and then
>>>>> "answers" it as being closed with just clicking ONE link.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Good idea ?
>>>> 
>>>> So you expect RIPE members to completely rework their abuse desks to fit into your view of the world?
>>> 
>>> Not MY VIEW, a standarized view.
>> 
>> You're not a very good listener, are you?
> 
> Might be because Im not english-speaking ... (like I noted when I was sending the draft).
> 
> But, like I outlined above, a rework is not really neccessary.
> Currently members are receiving lots of different formatted reports
> to their abuse desk (if they have one) and have to read them all manually.
> It isnt that bad, if you will get reports, that are more standarized.
> 
>>> Thats the goal.
>>> 
>>> Lets see it this way: providers have to change their infrastructure
>>> regulary for a couple or reasons and always have done.
>>> Serverhousing changed pretty much during the last years.
>>> There was the change from ISDN to DSL dialin, there are new
>>> technologies for HTML, Flash and Mail every day.
>>> 
>>> And do not forget IPv6, EVERY member has to change that in the new future.
>>> 
>>>> I can't see that happening, because not all RIPE members are the same or work in the same way.
>>> 
>>> Well they work on the same basics, what are allocations and other resources.
>>> Resources cause traffic, and every members uses resources like nameservices,
>>> webpages and email. And spam problem comes into play with the later.
>>> 
>>> The difference isnt that big.
>>> Business models have nothing to do with how to deal with resources the got from RIPE.
>> 
>> Yes it does
>> 
>> If you think that you can live in a world where business models have zero impact on reality then you are deluded
> 
> Example, please give an example ....

I don't need to 

It's a simple fact.

The fact that I've raised it (more than once) is enough (we are a RIPE member among other things .. )



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