[anti-abuse-wg] DRAFT: RIPE proposal - implementation of an

   First a ...

Hello (thats good tone in Germany),

> Again - if you expect there to be ANY dialogue you need to drop that attitude
> 
> It's offensive and totally unhelpful

Well, like we say in Germany: people are only offended, if somebody
gets them, thats they are doing something wrong.

This is defny not against you or any other member that takes care
about abuse reports.

Its only against members, that are ignoring that there attitude
or business model causes real harm to others.
I will keep THAT attitute.

> I'm having difficulty understanding this.
> 
> If a RIPE member has an abuse contact and sets up abuse contact objects for every allocation, why do you need anything else?

Like I outline already:
- whois is complicated and unusefull for end users
- IRT objects makes it even more complicated
- nobody is meassuring the members so far
- nobody has detailed data about how much abuse is really happening
  except really well-known blacklists like spamhaus

> > But feel free to explain these "business models" to me ...
> 
> Again - drop the attitude
> 
> You have to understand that not every RIPE member offers the same services or has the same resources at their disposal etc.,

Again, please give me an example, why any business model should ignore,
that the business model is causing real harm to others.

An example please.

> >>> "Bad providers" could be even published by RIPE :o)
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Are you insane? RIPE cannot open itself up for that kind of liability
> > 
> > Why not, blacklists are doing the same, whats the difference ?
> 
> Ask a lawyer.

More details please.

> >>> Well, thats only work at RIPE NCC, its not that complicated to
> >>> automated bounces ...
> >> 
> >> So you say .. 
> > 
> > Yes, its quite easy.
> 
> No it isn't. 

It is, we developed our own blacklist, and that wasnt that much work.
A powerfull organisation with competent workers like RIPE would create
that in really short time.

Please give me arguments, why its soo complicated.

Mailtools are wellknown, open source and available for nearly everything
you might want to do with mail.
It is easy, I was even already thinking about to use our own
blacklist as testbed, we not all available abuse contacts anyway
and to setup a general formatted email address is two lines
in the mailserver config and to pump that in a script that
forwards the mail after looking up the correct address is a
ten-liner in perl.

Im still thinking about this testbed, the only problem is:
- our abuse addresses we have might not be as reliable
  than RIPE will have them and it would be really bad to accuse
  the wrong person or even expose details to the wrong
  person

If I would get complete access to all personal objects at RIPE in
a live process, a would think about the testbed again ...

I could even sign whatever non-disclosure to ensure, that we
are not doing anything wrong with this data.

> Either:
> 
> - learn how to discuss this with other RIPE members
> or
> 
> keep on with your stupid attitude and see how far it gets you

Hm, Im not starting with words like "stupid", so please do not
reglement my tone and cool down first.

You seem to fight heavily against any idea arriving here.
What are you so frightened about ?

> >> You cannot speak for all providers / RIPE members.
> > 
> > Thats one of the reasons for a centralized system located at RIPE.
> > The system only needs to be implemented once, there will be nearly
> > no costs on the members side (except that they have
> > to deal with report, but they can still ignore them and except
> > the costs that might be added to RIPEs fees, but that should not be that
> > much.
> 
> You do not know that.
> 
> You have no way of knowing how much of a load would be placed on RIPE's systems

Sure, but RIPE is using millions of EUR yearly to get everything going.
You are an ISP yourself, make a guess, how much that costs
if you do not have to make provit.

I quick guess:
- a redundant mailserver environment capable of what ? deliver 50 mio mails a day ?
- a would say 100GB traffic/day and 25 highend server
- thats about 3000 EUR traffic-costs a month
- and about 50 thousand one time invest for the servers

- plus the development, I would implement something like this with
  one month work, ok 5.000
- plus hirering one person to take care about hardware and special cases, that
  3.000/month

All together, lets say 6.000 per month plus the invest.
And now devide this to all members with the usual scale
(small pay less than big members), how much would that add
to the normal yearly membership costs ?
Could somebody could quickly compare that to the last yearly costs at RIPE ?

You can save that if you only cut 30 peoples journeys to nice holiday locations
for "meetings" that could be done via modern comunication techniques anyway
per year.

> >>> Well, the monitoring system could send always the same backlink
> >>> for the same IP, so that the ISP could still count the amount
> >>> of incoming reports for one IP automatically and then
> >>> "answers" it as being closed with just clicking ONE link.
> >>> 
> >>> Good idea ?
> >> 
> >> So you expect RIPE members to completely rework their abuse desks to fit into your view of the world?
> > 
> > Not MY VIEW, a standarized view.
> 
> You're not a very good listener, are you?

Might be because Im not english-speaking ... (like I noted when I was sending the draft).

But, like I outlined above, a rework is not really neccessary.
Currently members are receiving lots of different formatted reports
to their abuse desk (if they have one) and have to read them all manually.
It isnt that bad, if you will get reports, that are more standarized.

> > Thats the goal.
> > 
> > Lets see it this way: providers have to change their infrastructure
> > regulary for a couple or reasons and always have done.
> > Serverhousing changed pretty much during the last years.
> > There was the change from ISDN to DSL dialin, there are new
> > technologies for HTML, Flash and Mail every day.
> > 
> > And do not forget IPv6, EVERY member has to change that in the new future.
> > 
> >> I can't see that happening, because not all RIPE members are the same or work in the same way.
> > 
> > Well they work on the same basics, what are allocations and other resources.
> > Resources cause traffic, and every members uses resources like nameservices,
> > webpages and email. And spam problem comes into play with the later.
> > 
> > The difference isnt that big.
> > Business models have nothing to do with how to deal with resources the got from RIPE.
> 
> Yes it does
> 
> If you think that you can live in a world where business models have zero impact on reality then you are deluded

Example, please give an example ....


Kind regards, Frank
--
PHADE Software - PowerWeb                       http://www.powerweb.de
Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast             mailto:frank at powerweb.de
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> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Kind regards, Frank
> > 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Mr Michele Neylon
> >> Blacknight Solutions
> >> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> >> ICANN Accredited Registrar
> >> http://www.blacknight.com/
> >> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> >> http://mneylon.tel
> >> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> >> US: 213-233-1612 
> >> UK: 0844 484 9361
> >> Locall: 1850 929 929
> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> >> -------------------------------
> >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
> >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> 
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> ICANN Accredited Registrar
> http://www.blacknight.com/
> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> http://mneylon.tel
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> US: 213-233-1612 
> UK: 0844 484 9361
> Locall: 1850 929 929
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> -------------------------------
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> 
>