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    <p>Hello Denis,<br>
      <br>
      Thank you for your questions. Allow me to answer as many as I can
      right now. As you indicated, getting the data for some of the
      requests in your email from 9 December would require quite some
      time and effort. Considering that Registry Services is currently
      in the busiest time of the year, I would prefer to first identify
      if this data would really be beneficial for the ongoing discussion
      about the IPv4 waiting list policy and potential policy proposal.<br>
      <br>
      For example, you asked if some members with 10+ LIR accounts are
      brokers or are from a certain country. What I can say is that
      these members are quite diverse. They are located in several
      countries inside and outside of our service region. <br>
      Some of these 98 organisations only became members in the last two
      years, while others opened multiple LIR accounts in the past
      several years and so received multiple /22 IPv4 allocations under
      the former "Last /8” policy, and later /24 IPv4 allocations under
      the current policy. Those members received around 1,100 /22s
      between September 2012 and November 2019, when the "Last /8"
      policy was in place.<br>
      <br>
      As for your comments about consolidations, I would like to clarify
      that the RIPE NCC uses this term when a member consolidates some
      of their LIR accounts into another LIR account. When an LIR
      receives resources that are restricted by a holding period, those
      resources must be kept in that LIR account until the holding
      period has passed. After that 24-month period, these members
      usually decide to consolidate their LIR accounts, including their
      resources. If a company were to take over one of its child
      companies, this would be processed by the RIPE NCC as a merger of
      two different legal bodies.<br>
      <br>
      To provide some more numbers, besides the 98 members that hold 10
      or more accounts, we currently have 112 members that hold between
      5 and 9 LIR accounts. <br>
      The maximum amount of /24 allocations that a single member has
      received under the current policy is 33. <br>
      So far, no allocations received under the current waiting list
      policy have been transferred due to the fact that the first such
      allocation was provided around 24 months ago and almost all
      allocations are still within their holding period.<br>
      <br>
      I hope this answers most of your questions.<br>
      <br>
      Kind regards,<br>
      Marco Schmidt<br>
      Assistant Manager Registry Services<br>
      RIPE NCC <br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/12/2021 14:20, denis walker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKvLzuF1MV-4_cbHBEH5_ny+EtZdZgKxLdze4ye_BFXHJBG=pw@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Hi Guys<br>
        <br>
        I have some more questions now as I dig deeper into these
        allocations. Marco mentioned in his email that the situation is
        quite fluid because of consolidations, transfers, and opening of
        new LIR accounts that occur all the time. I have found the
        transfer information, where can I find details of
        consolidations? Also is the waiting list published anywhere? I
        have seen companies with say 25 LIRs where 22 have already
        received a /24 this year. I would like to know if the other 3
        LIRs are on the waiting list and at what position.<br>
        <br>
        Now I have some detailed questions about what is meant by
        consolidation. I will illustrate with an anonymous example. For
        all my analysis I will not identify any company by name. My
        intention is to expose behaviour.<br>
        <br>
        So we have a parent company ABC Networks BV. They set up 5 child
        companies. One in 2017 and 4 in early 2019. One of them is XYZ
        Networks BV.<br>
        <br>
        XYZ networks BV opens 12 LIRs. Throughout 2019 each of these
        LIRs receive a /22 allocation. In December 2019 all these
        LIRs/allocations moved to the parent company ABC Networks BV and
        the child company XYZ Networks BV was deregistered according to
        the Chamber of Commerce.<br>
        <br>
        In total the 5 child companies opened 50 LIRs. They each
        received a /22 throughout 2019 and all these child companies
        were deregistered in December 2019 with their LIRs/allocations
        'transferred' to the parent company. Is this what is meant by
        consolidation? Not sure what the business case is to register
        several companies who open several LIRs each to get allocations,
        then close the companies a few months later and merge all the
        resources into the parent company...unless it is to try to hide
        the true number of LIRs the parent company has set up.<br>
        <br>
        The timing is also interesting. All of these child companies
        were merged with the parent company on 2 December 2019,
        according to the Chamber of Commerce:<br>
        "Merger deed passed on 02-12-2019. Acquiring legal entity: ABC
        Networks BV Disappearing legal entities: XYZ Networks BV..."<br>
        The child companies were then all deregistered on 5 December
        2019, according to the Chamber of Commerce:<br>
        "As of 5-12-2019, the legal entity has been deregistered due to
        Termination of registration"<br>
        <br>
        According to the Transfer Statistics the date of the transfer of
        the resources was 23 December 2019 from the child company XYZ
        Networks BV to the parent company ABC Networks BV. The
        ORGANISATION objects in the RIPE Database were also modified on
        23 December 2019 to change the "org-name:" to that of the parent
        company ABC Networks BV. But the child company XYZ Networks BV
        did not exist on 23 December 2019. So was this a valid transfer?
        This applies to all 50 of the allocated resources to these child
        companies's LIRs.<br>
        <br>
        I suspect that when the merger took place on 2 December 2019 the
        parent company took legal ownership of the assets of the child
        company, including the LIR accounts with the allocated
        resources. That means the transfer actually took place on 2
        December 2019, not the 23 December 2019 as stated in the
        Transfer Statistics. That makes the Transfer Statistics wrong.
        If this is meant to be a legal document that is not good.
        Something needs to be tightened up here. Maybe it is a chicken
        & egg situation. The merger has to legally occur and
        documents supplied to the RIPE NCC before the transfer can be
        acknowledged. But then the transfer stats should make it clear
        the transfer actually took place on 2 December when the merger
        occurred, not the date it was acknowledged by the RIE NCC on 23
        December.<br>
        <br>
        It is also not clear to me what has actually been
        transferred/acquired? Is it the allocations or the LIR accounts
        with the allocations? In the delegated stats there still exists
        several entries for nl.xyz1, nl.xyz2, etc. These all refer to
        the legal name of the parent company ABC Networks BV. Does this
        mean the parent company has taken control (acquired) all 50 of
        these LIR accounts with their allocations, not just the
        allocations? Is this still a consolidation?<br>
        <br>
        Another general question. When a whole resource is transferred
        (within RIPE region) it looks like the RIPE NCC deletes and
        recreates the allocation object in the RIPE Database with
        'todays' date as the creation date. But the entry in the
        delegated stats keeps the original allocation date. Is this how
        it is meant to be documented? (A good example of why a
        historical query in the RIPE Database should show the full
        history.)<br>
        <br>
        None of this is explained very well, or at all, in the policies
        or documentation. It assumes people know a lot more about this
        registration stuff than a database expert does (but I am
        learning). If someone can answer these points it may well help
        some of the new LIRs as well. I am sure there is a steep
        learning curve here for the newbies.<br>
        <br>
        cheers<br>
        denis<br>
        co-chair DB-WG</div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 17:17,
          Albanian Hosting SH.P.K. via address-policy-wg <<a
            href="mailto:address-policy-wg@ripe.net"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">address-policy-wg@ripe.net</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">Hey Denis Walker,
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>in 2019 until the end of december the last /22
              allocation was assigned to the members/Lirs, once the ripe
              stopped assigning /22, there was not that much interest in
              2020 for only a /24 subnet. And no, it was not free! Since
              in 2021 the price per IP skyrocketed, and ripe announced
              that they are out of stock, due because of this and due
              because the price per IP is going to the moon, the LIRs
              (mostly big boys) with multiple allocations started to
              apply for more and believe me they are making a good
              profit from this. For now is 200€/month is the price for
              /24 subnet to rent out, and it will be higher and higher.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Cheers.<br clear="all">
              <div><br>
              </div>
              -- <br>
              <div dir="ltr">
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