[address-policy-wg] IPv4 waiting list policy

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 20:36, James Kennedy <jameskennedy001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This should keep your analysts busy for a while :)
>
> A slightly more respectful tone for the hard work performed by the RIPE NCC analysts to answer not-so-easy questions would be appreciated, Denis.

As a former RIPE NCC analyst, who has answered many such requests in
the past and is well aware of the amount of work involved, speaking to
other analysts, that was not in any way intended to be disrespectful
James.

cheers
denis
co-chair DB-WG

>
> Regards,
> James
> co-chair apwg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 7:30 PM denis walker <ripedenis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Marco
>>
>> I have a few more questions for you so have a clearer picture of what
>> is going on here.
>>
>> -How many of these 98 members have operated the first LIR account for
>> a number of years and held a significant amount of IPv4 address space
>> with that account?
>> (What I am trying to understand is if any of these members were not
>> operating at all as an LIR before setting up this series of LIR
>> accounts simply to obtain address space they have no intention of
>> using but is only to sell.)
>>
>> -Are any of these 98 organisations transfer brokers?
>> (I am sure it does not break any confidentiality rules to identify the
>> type of business a group of unnamed members operate.)
>>
>> -Are any of these 98 organisations based in the USA?
>>
>> -Over what time period were their other 9 or more accounts created?
>>
>> -How many of these 1254 /24s have been assigned or are detectably in use?
>>
>> -What is the most LIRs any one member holds and how many /24s has that
>> member obtained?
>>
>> -How many members have 5-9 LIRs?
>>
>> -How many /24s have been allocated under the waiting list policy and
>> transferred within 6 months of the end of the 2 year holding period?
>>
>> This should keep your analysts busy for a while :)
>>
>> cheers
>> denis
>> co-chair DB-WG
>>
>>
>> btw your document
>> https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/how-waiting-list-works
>> references an outdated version of the IPv4 policy
>>
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 17:13, Marco Schmidt <mschmidt at ripe.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Arash,
>> >
>> > Thank you for your question.
>> >
>> > At the moment, we see 98 members with 10 or more LIR accounts. These members have received a total of 1254 /24s under the current IPv4 waiting list policy.
>> >
>> > I would like to note that these numbers are constantly changing. On the one hand, some members continue to open additional LIR accounts, while other members consolidate or close many LIR accounts as soon as the 24-month holding period expires. This also explains the slight difference from the previously published numbers. Several members that held 10 or more accounts when they received /24s have since reduced their number of LIRs.
>> >
>> > I hope this answers your question.
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Marco Schmidt
>> > Assistant Manager Registry Services
>> > RIPE NCC
>> >
>> > On 08/12/2021 12:39, Arash Naderpour wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Marco,
>> >
>> > Could you please let me know how many organizations have 10 or more LIR accounts?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Arash Naderpour
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 8:22 PM Marco Schmidt <mschmidt at ripe.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear colleagues,
>> >>
>> >> In the Address Policy Working Group sessions at RIPE 83, I shared our
>> >> observations regarding the IPv4 waiting list policy. [1]
>> >>
>> >> The intent of this policy was to provide newcomers with a minimal amount
>> >> of IPv4 space for as long as possible. However, about half of these
>> >> allocations went to members that received several /24 allocations via
>> >> multiple LIR accounts.
>> >>
>> >> As there was interest in reviewing the policy at the RIPE Meeting, I
>> >> would like to provide more detail on the provision of IPv4 allocations
>> >> over the last two years and the current situation with the waiting list.
>> >>
>> >> In the last 24 months, we provided 4,178 LIRs with a /24 allocation:
>> >> -    2,019 allocations (48%) went to members with a single LIR account
>> >> -    452 allocations (11%) went to members with 2-4 LIR accounts
>> >> -    298 allocations (7%) went to members with 5-9 LIR accounts and
>> >> -    1,409 allocations (34%) went to members with 10 or more LIR
>> >> accounts (up to 33 /24 allocations to a single member)
>> >>
>> >> This trend towards allocations to multiple LIR accounts has accelerated
>> >> in the past six months. Between June and November 2021, only 24% of
>> >> allocations went to members with a single LIR account, while 54% went to
>> >> members with 10 or more accounts.
>> >>
>> >> We see the same trend with the current waiting list. At the time of
>> >> writing, we can see 327 requests for a /24 allocation:
>> >> -    83 (25%) are from members with a single LIR account
>> >> -    42 (13%) are from members with 2-4 LIRs accounts
>> >> -    45 (14%) are from members with 5-9 LIR accounts
>> >> -    157 (48%) are from members with 10 or more LIR accounts
>> >>
>> >> Consequently, there is a significantly longer wait time for members with
>> >> a single LIR account.
>> >>
>> >> Looking at the current market prices for IPv4 in comparison to our
>> >> membership fees, even a wait time of several months is acceptable for
>> >> organisations that plan to transfer their allocation after the end of
>> >> the holding period. Conversely, the long wait time will create
>> >> uncertainty for real newcomers, especially if they can’t rely on
>> >> IPv6-only networks.
>> >>
>> >> I hope the WG finds this information useful for further discussion. If
>> >> there is consensus to change the current situation, there are several
>> >> approaches available – including a review of the waiting list policy and
>> >> changing ‘per LIR’ to something else. Other approaches, such as a
>> >> different charging scheme or changing the concept of multiple LIRs would
>> >> need to be approved by the RIPE NCC membership.
>> >>
>> >> Kind regards,
>> >> Marco Schmidt
>> >> Assistant Manager Registry Services
>> >> RIPE NCC
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://ripe83.ripe.net/archives/video/642/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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