[address-policy-wg] proposal to remove IPv6 PI

I will use [Jordi] to make it clear.

Regards,
Jordi
 
 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de Maximilian Wilhelm <max at rfc2324.org>
Fecha: jueves, 17 de mayo de 2018, 17:36
Para: <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
Asunto: Re: [address-policy-wg] proposal to remove IPv6 PI

    Anno domini 2018 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg scripsit:
    
    > Responding below, in-line.
    
    *PLEASE* use some meaningful way to quote and answer inline so a
    reader can distinguish between the original text and your answer. You
    current mode of answering is making this really hard.
    
    >     > De: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de Martin Huněk <hunekm at gmail.com>
    >     > Fecha: miércoles, 16 de mayo de 2018, 17:28
    >     > Para: <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
    >     > Asunto: Re: [address-policy-wg] proposal to remove IPv6 PI
    >     > 
    >     >>     Hi Jordi,
    >     >     
    >     >>     As I understand it, the PA is only for a LIR and PI is also for sponsored organization. Also the PI is solely for the end user infrastructure and and PA can be further allocated or assigned.
    >     > 
    >     > This is our actual definition. We can change it whenever we want. What I'm asking is what is the *real* distinction among them. Forget for a minute in contracts, fee structure and so on. There is no need to call the same with different names if we don't want. I'm calling here for simplicity. Once we remove the sub-assignment obstacle, there is not anymore a difference.
    >     
    >     Discussion should be about, if we want to / should remove such *obstacle*. I would personally prefer that policy about PI space would stay the same. Just RIPE NCC should be more investigative and restrictive when assigning those. 
    > 
    > Being Internet policy is very difficult. If we have ways to avoid that, is an easier way to achieve the same. Policies are for a fair distribution of the resources, to make that distribution simpler, not to have complex policies and then being unable to track how well anyone is behaving with them.
    >     
    
    >     > Yes, that's the idea, please see my slides. PI holders will need to become members, maybe the fee will get an increase (something on the line of a small one-time setup fee and later on a proportion of the cost of a /32 if you are getting only a /48, etc., but this is for the membership to decide). What we all win with that is a fairer cost distribution and also an easier way to make sure that the rules are followed and nobody tricks the rules using a PI as PA. Specially for the NCC is much simpler.
    >     
    >     Easy as a flat rate for every LIR. Actually this is the main problem problem for me. LIR should by the name work as local internet registry. This has been broken for IPv4 by IPv4 shortage. Not everyone should be forced to be a RIPE NCC member. I'm perfectly fine with 50 EUR fee for every /48 for those. Such organization which needs PI have no plans for assigning 
    > 
    > Is easier, but it is fair?
    
    This is not for the AP-WG to decide.

[Jordi] Agree, but it was not either when we created IPv6 PI, and all the needed changes were considered in parallel.
    
    > addresses to third parties, so why they should be LIR when they don't plan to act as one?
    > 
    > The problem is that once we accepted 2016-04, that got broken. End-users being assigned a /48 are using that now to sub-assign addresses to other end-users (employees, students, users of a hot-spot, etc.).
    
    Well, most people obviously don't consider this "broken" as there has
    been a consensus after all. And I think we really made clear that it's
    not a sub-assigment, which was the whole point of the last two years.

[Jordi] We aren't going to discuss that over and over again. Different people who read that text has a different interpretation than the impact analysis, so objectively it is broken.
    
    >     This would make IPv6 addresses less accessible. It is like LIR saying: "Do you want to have your own addresses or more then I gave you? Go to the RIPE NCC and pay them 1400 EUR/y! No matter what you do...". Those PI users would either loose protection of their own space or they would had to pay 28x more per year plus 2000 EUR sign up fee. What would do company outside of the internet business? They would not implement IPv6, that is easy! :-)
    >
    > As said before, this is fixed in combination with the fee structure decision by the AGM. So *no*, on the contrary, will be fairer. I think probably a 50 Euros cost for a /48 is really too low, and may be a /32 will become cheaper, and of course, a /20 more expensive. There are many possible models for that, but it can be perfectly managed to avoid anyone having a requirement from a /48 to not being able to afford it.
    >
    >     >>     In my opinion PI should still be here, but only for a special cases, non-ISP non-LIR organizations. So if there will be any use of PI space by ISP for its clients, it should be immediately reclaimed by RIPE NCC. Also LIR should not be entitled to claim PI for itself. But this is just my point of view.
    >     >
    >     > So then, again, let's roll back 2016-04, because is non-sense that somebody instead of using the addressing space for their own organization as end-user, is using it for a hotspot or datacenter.
    >
    >     2016-04 is not the problem, it doesn't say that you can use PI as PA. It just allows you to use your PI range on your premise and give access to such network to the third party. It does not allow you to give whole range to CPE.
    >
    > It allows sub-assigments, which was not the intent of the original IPv6 PI, at all.
    
    This may be true but it's not relevent. The "original IPv6 PI" isn't here
    anymore and the community decided it should be the way it is *now*.

[Jordi] Right, and any community member can suggest improvements again.

    
    Best
    Max
    
    



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