[address-policy-wg] Re: [ncc-services-wg] Complaint: Overly complicated when requesting PI space

Hi Laura,

Thanks, I already got into a discussion with Alex Le Heux, the policy 
implementation coordinator.
My initial mail is meant to open a bit of a discussion on questions 
asked for PI allocations, mainly because I had to pull customer and 
growth statistics from my own customer that were none of my business to 
be honest.

The situation is so, that we're a fairly large hosting and colocation 
provider, not the biggest by far but we come a long way in the dutch 
market. We have several smaller customers that rent a bunch of 19" racks 
but are usually in the same market as we are. So when a customer becomes 
bigger, we try and help and give some pointers to for example start 
routing themselves.

We have very good relations with our customers, but once I have to pull 
detailed growth and customer statistics from our customers, it gets 
kinda awkward. Because these really aren't any of my (or RIPE's for that 
matter) business. I'm all for responsible allocation of resources, but 
it should really stop at asking expected growth for IP space and how 
subnets are to be allocated.

I got pointed to the rule 'A customer cannot hold more then 2 IP 
addresses in the PI space', what's up with that ? This means that a 
customer with three SSL webshops and three IP's isn't allowed host his 
server in that PI range ?

Also an eyebrow raiser : 'Your customer should become LIR himself'.
So now I'd have to make up a story to justify a /21 for him (which he 
doesn't need yet) rather then a /24 + AS, which is the bare minimum to 
start routing on the internet ?

I know it's all policy to hand out resources as good and honestly as 
possible, but (and this opinion is shared by more Dutch network 
operators I spoke with today) requesting PI space feels like pulling 
teeth and takes up far too much time like this.


Laura Cobley wrote:
> Dear Jeroen, Florian and all,
>
> The RIPE NCC has an internal escalation procedure for handling 
> concerns about the way your request has been handled. You can ask for 
> any request to be escalated by sending an email to hostmaster at ripe.net 
> and quoting the relevant NCC# ticket number. Your request will then be 
> reviewed and assessed by senior staff.
>
> If your concern is of a more serious nature, please refer to the RIPE 
> NCC's Conflict Arbitration Procedure available online at: 
> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/arbitration.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Laura Cobley
> RIPE NCC Registration Services
>
>
> Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
>> Hello Members,
>>
>> I'd like to state a complaint toward overly complicated issues with 
>> requesting PI space as a LIR for a customer.
>>
>> Situation: I have a customer who's purchased a router and wants his 
>> own IP space+AS number to start multihoming. Since he's pretty new to 
>> routing and policies of RIPE and managing the database to keep things 
>> going, we as LIR offered him to do this for him at the startup phase. 
>> Currently he'll be hosting several services from within our PA ranges 
>> and will start growing his new resources in the PI space he wants.
>>
>> After filling in the request forms, his AS got approved pending the 
>> PI /24 range assignment. And that's been a process that's currently 
>> becoming something ridiculous.
>>
>> Initially I got some return questions on how the subnets would be 
>> sliced up, what would be used for management of the routers, if IP's 
>> are being assigned statically or dynamically, how much IP's a 
>> customer would use and if PA space is being returned. Questions 
>> (except for the 'how much IP's will a customer use') I can understand 
>> and all answered.
>>
>> Then in a follow-up I got asked what the montly growth is, who's 
>> administratively responsible for the IP's and how they're going to be 
>> used on the servers.
>>
>> Then in a next follow up I got pointed to using PA space either from 
>> us or a different provider or that the customer should become LIR 
>> himself since we as LIR cannot sub-allocate PI space. (something 
>> that's not intended in the first place at all, we just administer it 
>> on a contract base until he understands procedures)
>>
>> And then after explaining that we will only help the customer on 
>> contract base and not sub-allocate anything, another follow-up comes 
>> that no customer can use more then 1 or 2 IP's and once again a 
>> question on how many servers are involved here.
>>
>> And that's where I'm at now. I've been trying to request PI space for 
>> our customer since last friday, and in my opinion there's too much 
>> meddling into internal business by RIPE here and this is taking a 
>> ridiculous amount of time and communication.
>>
>> As a LIR we hand out IP space responsibly to our customers, for a 
>> good technical and administrative reason we have a customer who wants 
>> his own PI assignment and I'm asking him questions about his business 
>> that lean towards a company secret. In my opinion RIPE has absolutely 
>> no business in asking how many customers and/or servers someone has 
>> and stating that a customer can not use >2 IP's in that PI space 
>> (what if someone has *gasp* 3 SSL websites ?, I cannot imagine that 
>> happening.., ever).
>>
>> Also neither we or our customer has a crystal ball to see in the 
>> future, so sure I can tell the amount of customer growth I'll be 
>> expecting or HOPING to see, but come on.
>>
>> I know IPv4 space must be handed out responsibly, but this is 
>> seriously going too far, especially for a LIR. Supposedly I cannot 
>> give a routing-reason for requesting PI space, but part of that IS 
>> important on why I'm requesting it. It's really not desirable for us 
>> AND for my customer to chop out a part of my PA space and announce in 
>> smaller chunks from his own AS on the same exchange points we're on 
>> and this customer is NOT at the stage yet to become a full LIR himself.
>>
>>

-- 

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jeroen Wunnink,
EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder
systeembeheer at easyhosting.nl

telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455              Postbus 48
fax: +31 (035) 6838242                  3755 ZG Eemnes

http://www.easyhosting.nl
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